Even number of shells

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Noren
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Even number of shells

Postby Noren » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:31 am

I will start to say that I don't know what happens behind the scenes here. But for me it seems like something that should be possible to fix.
When printing a pipe with a total of three shells. The width is 3x0.4 mm (nozzle width).
The middle shell isn't printed uniformly in a straight uninterrupted line. It's printed like infill in a zigzag pattern.
I guess its due to that the software can only fit one shell on each side. And the middle becomes infill. Even if I have chosen two shells.
If i widen the pipe to 4x0.4 mm I get four shells.
And if i narrow the pipe to 2x0.4 mm I get two shells
Couldn't the software be smart enough to use two shells on the outside and one shell on the inside?
Or that the software is smart enough to use uninterrupted line as infill three the space between shells is the same as the nozzle width.
What i ask is that the software prints as solid and clean walls as possible.
Maybe ad an option to activate "print solid walls" or something like that.
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Skärmavbild 2017-01-08 kl. 14.37.24.png
Skärmavbild 2017-01-08 kl. 13.56.14.png

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dhylands
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby dhylands » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:38 pm

What you're calling the inside is still an "outside" as far as the slicer is concerned. To the slicer, the inside is the bit between the walls.

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Noren
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Noren » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:49 pm

Ok. Sorry for my terminology. All I want is consistent clean walls. :)

ABH
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby ABH » Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:54 am

Optimally you have to design your model so that it complies to the extrusion width your printer is using.
Alternatively you can adjust the extrusion width that your printer is using (within limits of what the nozzle size allows).
In ideaMaker the only way to adjust the extrusion width, is to go to Printer Settings and adjust the "Nozzle Size".
If the physical nozzle size is 0.4 mm, then, for example, you can set "Nozzle Size" to 0.5 mm to obtain 0.5 mm extrusion width.
This is a thread where I proposed to include a setting for "Extrusion Width" in the template definitions:
http://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1094

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:56 am

Nope, I'm afraid you should misunderstand the define of outer shell.

For ideaMaker, all the wall face to air are outer shells. And the shells inside outer shell are inner shells.
If you define two shells, then both the ID side and OD side will generate two shells, which for you is 4 shells in total.
If you define three shells, then both the ID side and OD side will generate three shells, which for you is 6 shells in total.

In a tube with 3*0.4mm wall thickness, both the ID side and OD side have an outer shell of 0.4mm. And there is no remaining space to generate one more inner shell for both ID side and OD side. So you only see two shells and infill for inside 0.4mm space.
For tube with 4*0.4mm wall thickness, both the ID side and OD side have an outer shell of 0.4mm. And there has 2*0.4mm remaining space so that it can generate one more inner shell for both ID side and OD side. So you can see four shells in total.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:57 am

ABH wrote:Optimally you have to design your model so that it complies to the extrusion width your printer is using.
Alternatively you can adjust the extrusion width that your printer is using (within limits of what the nozzle size allows).
In ideaMaker the only way to adjust the extrusion width, is to go to Printer Settings and adjust the "Nozzle Size".
If the physical nozzle size is 0.4 mm, then, for example, you can set "Nozzle Size" to 0.5 mm to obtain 0.5 mm extrusion width.
This is a thread where I proposed to include a setting for "Extrusion Width" in the template definitions:
http://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1094


Actually we just released a new version of ideaMaker today which includes Extrusion Width now.

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Noren
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Noren » Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:15 am

Thanks for the clarification Vicky. I understand the logic. But would it be able to be smart enough to add one inner shell on one side if it fits?

And a question two your statement about the new idea maker version. When and why would one like to change the extrusion width?

ABH
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby ABH » Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:21 pm

OK, in Simplify3D I can make the inner trace of a 3*0.4mm thick wall look like a single continuous trace, so that it looks like 3 perimeter traces (shells), by manipulating the extrusion width (and infill angles). You can do something similar in ideaMaker, but maybe it doesn't turn out to be a perfect circle (still room for improvement in ideaMaker :-).
Nice however, that you now added "Extrusion width" in ideaMaker :-)

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obfuscated
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby obfuscated » Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:52 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Actually we just released a new version of ideaMaker today which includes Extrusion Width now.


Cool!

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:25 pm

ABH wrote:OK, in Simplify3D I can make the inner trace of a 3*0.4mm thick wall look like a single continuous trace, so that it looks like 3 perimeter traces (shells), by manipulating the extrusion width (and infill angles). You can do something similar in ideaMaker, but maybe it doesn't turn out to be a perfect circle (still room for improvement in ideaMaker :-).
Nice however, that you now added "Extrusion width" in ideaMaker :-)


Would you like to share both gcode sliced by ideaMaker and S3D about this problem?
We'd like to check whether we have any optimized part.
Thanks a lot!

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:33 pm

Noren wrote:Thanks for the clarification Vicky. I understand the logic. But would it be able to be smart enough to add one inner shell on one side if it fits?

And a question two your statement about the new idea maker version. When and why would one like to change the extrusion width?


When you are using the default 0.4mm setting, but the actual result doesn't extuder a shell with 0.4mm-thickness. Use 0.35 as an example. You need to edit the extrusion width to be 0.35 to match your actual result. Or all the building datas of wall thickness will be calculated to be 0.4mm. There will have a lot gap between shells because they are only 0.35mm.

ABH
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby ABH » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:40 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
ABH wrote:OK, in Simplify3D I can make the inner trace of a 3*0.4mm thick wall look like a single continuous trace, so that it looks like 3 perimeter traces (shells), by manipulating the extrusion width (and infill angles). You can do something similar in ideaMaker, but maybe it doesn't turn out to be a perfect circle (still room for improvement in ideaMaker :-).
Nice however, that you now added "Extrusion width" in ideaMaker :-)


Would you like to share both gcode sliced by ideaMaker and S3D about this problem?
We'd like to check whether we have any optimized part.
Thanks a lot!


This is from the slicer preview in Simplify3D. The wall of the cylinder is 1.2 mm thick:
S3D.png
Attachments
Cylinder_perimeters.zip
(105.33 KiB) Downloaded 7 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Jan 27, 2017 3:34 pm

ABH wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
ABH wrote:OK, in Simplify3D I can make the inner trace of a 3*0.4mm thick wall look like a single continuous trace, so that it looks like 3 perimeter traces (shells), by manipulating the extrusion width (and infill angles). You can do something similar in ideaMaker, but maybe it doesn't turn out to be a perfect circle (still room for improvement in ideaMaker :-).
Nice however, that you now added "Extrusion width" in ideaMaker :-)


Would you like to share both gcode sliced by ideaMaker and S3D about this problem?
We'd like to check whether we have any optimized part.
Thanks a lot!


This is from the slicer preview in Simplify3D. The wall of the cylinder is 1.2 mm thick:
S3D.png


Thanks for sharing!
Based on the color of the preview in S3D, the inner color seems not shell but infill.
The 0.4mm gap seems to narrow for S3D to generate horizontal infill stripes, so it only generate a line.

ABH
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Re: Even number of shells

Postby ABH » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:14 pm

Yes, the inner trace isn't a perimeter (=shell), it's infill, but it's a circular continuous trace, so in the printed model you will not care whether you have 3 shells (or any uneven number of shells) or you have an even number of shells and infill in the center. That's what I always claimed, that you can obtain what the OP wanted in the printed model, by manipulating the extrusion width.


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