PVA Support Material Test

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John@Raise3D
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PVA Support Material Test

Postby John@Raise3D » Fri Sep 23, 2016 7:52 am

We have finished more tests with PVA support. Here are some pictures and we will release a video on our YouTube channel.
We have printed 3 models, including engineering parts and car model (Taco truck).
Here is how it looks like when just out of printer.
1.JPG

Remove support.
5.JPG

Still some residual is hard to remove.
6.JPG

Soak in water.
8.JPG

Then after half an hour and some brushing, here are how the models look like.
02-3.jpg
02-4.jpg
02-5.jpg
02-1.jpg
02-2.jpg
01-1.jpg
01-2.jpg
01-3.jpg
03-1.jpg
03-2.jpg
03-3.jpg


Some basics about we have done.
1. Yellow filament
Raise3D Premium PLA; In left extruder
2. PVA filament
In right extruder

Modified based on Default Standard 1.75mm PLA V2 Hot End Settings.
1. Right nozzle at 180C
2. Bed 70C
3. No Raft
4. Pillar support; set dense support layer number to 4
5. in 'support' tab, X and Y offset all to 0
6. Slow down the support printing speed by 50% (mainly for the PVA part)
7. Use glass side of the build plate and use PVP glue stick to apply an adhesive layer
After the print is done, remove most of support and wipe wall and then soak the model in water (no HOT water). You can use a brush and some tweezers to get the wet and gooey residual out and get a clean bottom surface.
So far, with PVA support, the most useful application is to get a smooth surface for parts and also for models with complex structure/irremovable support.
For example, the taco truck, the structure is really complicated with lots of details and you can't remove the support if you are using regular material. With PVA, you can get things out and clean.

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Trhuster
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Trhuster » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:29 pm

Support looks very strange, like a fuzzy hariball ;). How can it hold up anything? I have some PVA from 3DPrima to try out soon, will report back about my findings.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:03 pm

That's ooze. A lot ooze. This filament seems to be very sensitive to temperature. But support structure is fine.

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walshlg
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby walshlg » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:46 pm

thanks for the great test!

Amos
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Amos » Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:28 pm

Why was this done on the 'glass side of the build plate' rather than the BuildTak?
No surface treatment necessary?

Thanks,

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:47 pm

We find that buildtak doesn't stick PVA very well. So we turn to glass side with glue.

firesped
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby firesped » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:02 pm

good to see there has been good testing for this. I think that you need to market this filament (as it seems you have produced raise3d brand filament) in a special way. as Jetguy has commented in other PVA threads, PVA goes bad fast even if you take every precaution to reseal it. so it would seem having a giant spool of it is not a good idea. As to the exact amount that you would want to put on a spool at a time, I don't know though. With how expensive it was previously been, I have given up on the idea of using PVA after my failed attempt to use it. One of my original plans was to print complex small toys with PVA as support.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:20 am

Thanks for you suggestion. Will ask sales to check whether small spool of PVA can be achieved on our site soon.

Olivier
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Olivier » Sat Jun 03, 2017 10:47 pm

Hello
I have recently a N2, I could not keep this machine if I can not use the pva. Can you tell me the brand you used (I tested 3 without success) and also have a profile to put directly into ideamaker?
Thank you

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:54 am

The brand we have tested with is Esun.
Not much changes in ideaMaker, but only the following five points:
1. Right nozzle at 180C
2. Bed 70C
3. No Raft
4. Pillar support; set dense support layer number to 4
5. in 'support' tab, vertical and horizontal offset all to 0

These two is changes on machine:
6. Slow down the support printing speed by 50% (mainly for the PVA part)
7. Use glass side of the build plate and use PVP glue stick to apply an adhesive layer

expressprototype
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby expressprototype » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:11 pm

i have tried PVA but the material keeps getting stuck on the feed after 10 mins

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sgeolog
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby sgeolog » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:17 pm

I printed few details with PVA support.... Does not work well. So, I loaded PVA to left nozzle and printed with raft (PVA). It was better. When PVA in right nozzle, it does not stick well to anything, plus it can brakes easily later. Smaller detail, of course, prints better. I am not printing big detail with PVA support, because there is big risk to finish it without any support.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:36 pm

Normally with PVA print, we mostly do not use Raft, since PLA and PVA cannot stick with each other very well.
For the not sticking well problem, that should very likely be due to the distance between nozzle and build plate. It is a little bit too far.

Tinkerer
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Tinkerer » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:59 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:...use PVP glue stick to apply an adhesive layer...


Hi,
what exactly is a PVP glue stick? Do not know that:-(

Is it a paper glue stick?

And:
When you apply that, how long do you let it dry before you start the print?

Thanks & best regards,
Mat

Tinkerer
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Tinkerer » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:47 am

P.S.:
I've tried to print with PVA today.
Which was one of the major reasons why I did buy a 3d-printer with 2 heads...
Dissapointing.
Did not get the PVA-stuff to stick to anything.
As expected, this stuff does not stick to the buildtak-plate.
It did not stick to the pure glass plate aas well.
Coating the glass plate with hairspray did not help.
Using a paper glue stick ("Uhu Stick") did not help either.

I used printing temp. of 190°C and bed temp of 70°C for the PVA.
Seems to be a devil of material...

I really wonder how you guys at raise3D did make that work...

Really hope that Verbatims BVOH prints easier... should arrive next week...

Tinkerer
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Tinkerer » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:52 pm

P.S.:
Did run a lot of testing to get this ugly stuff named PVA to print in my N2.
No real success so far:-(
It did finally stick a little bit to some sort of parcel packing tape - but really very weak.
I had to go up to 220°C with the temperature to get it sticking.
And then had very heavy oozing problems.
The nozzle starts to drip even before it starts to print and therefore even simple prints
are some sort of gamble. As the oozing material then gets in the way of the print...
(by the way, I like the way Cura prevents this by printing blobs of material onto the plate before the print. Works well!)

Not to speak of printing with two materials in one go - which is what PVA ist made for...

Oozing stops at around 190°C - but again, then the stuff does not stick onto the surface anymore.
Changed retraction settings to more retraction (amount and speed, one after the other).
Result? It still oozes like hell and the filament got stuck in the (bondtech) extruder.
By the way, I noticed the motors become quite hot during printing?
(yes, I lowered the Vref down to 0,5 V)

Can it be that the PVA is moist? Did have it out of the vacuum-bag just for some hours yet.
Within my N2 I have placed a big silica-gel-bag (the kind you get for placing in your car, re-dryable).
Humidity inside the (closed) printer is around 20%, while it's around 50% in the room.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Oct 24, 2017 11:41 am

Tinkerer wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:...use PVP glue stick to apply an adhesive layer...


Hi,
what exactly is a PVP glue stick? Do not know that:-(

Is it a paper glue stick?

And:
When you apply that, how long do you let it dry before you start the print?

Thanks & best regards,
Mat


Kinds of glue like this.
https://www.amazon.com/Strong-Adhesion- ... s=PVP+glue
https://www.amazon.com/Strong-Stickines ... s=PVP+glue

We apply it before print starts. It is very easy to clean off.

Do not use too high nozzle temperature for PVA, PVA is very sensitive to temperature.

Tinkerer
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Tinkerer » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:46 pm

Ah ja, thanks for the links.
Famous brands for them are "Pritt" and "Uhu" over here.
I tried Uhu already but that one doesn't do the trick.
Also read about that it seems to be a bit too weak.

It may also be that the PVA was already a bit wet when I got it.
Even if it was in a vacuum sealed bag. I saw some little bubbles when I loaded it and it came out of the nozzle.
It is currently in a small oven at 40°C for some hours - let's see, how things go afterwards.

As said, at 220°C it sticks well to the surface but has heavy stringing and oozing which makes it impossible to achieve good results.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:58 am

Not sure which brand of PVA you are using, you may need confirm with your supplier whether it can be stable at such high temperature. Both for the drying, they should can provide you better suggestion about that. Bubbles should be the moisture.
If your filament can stand such high temperature but just stringing for PVA printing, that should be not a big problem, since you will dissolve and remove in the end.
What about higher bed temperature for better adhesion?

Tinkerer
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Re: PVA Support Material Test

Postby Tinkerer » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:22 am

So...
I did try after having the PVA for about 3hrs in the oven.
Much better!
It even sticks onto the UHU-stick now.
Unfortunately the PLA seems not to stick on that, I had to find out last night...;-)

The brand is "Renkforce" - which is a label of a german electronics market.
No clue who the real manufacturer is. But their PLA and their ABS Pro are quite okay.
The PVA ws likely already somewhat humid when I got it.


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