N2-V2 bed plate clamps

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dmtulsa
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N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby dmtulsa » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:04 pm

Here is my idea of bed plate clamps for the N2-v2. Something about using folder binder clips just didn't sit well and I had a number of failed prints because they just don't hold well and the fact they cheapen the good looks of the printer itself.

The clamp is 35mm high, 30mm deep and 20mm wide. The bolt is 4 mm x 12mm. The nut sits in a counter sink. I also made a 5 x 5 x 4 mm 'foot pad' to distribute the load and not crack the glass, tighten them finger tight.. I used ABS with 40% fill and shelles x 6 just for strength. PLA would probably be fine. It was a long print at 10 hours for a set of 4 but I hope its a one time deal.

So how to improve them? I go by the KISS method for most things and for those that don't know what that is its a term the Navy, and others, used a lot. "Keep it simple stupid".

I know they look big in the pictures but there really not. They do not interfere with the operation. If there are any thoughts I'd like to hear them.

clamp3.jpg
clamp3.jpg (30.19 KiB) Viewed 757 times
clamp2.jpg
clamp2.jpg (29.36 KiB) Viewed 757 times
abs_clamp_pad.JPG
pad
abs_clamp_pad.JPG (12.06 KiB) Viewed 757 times

Alex M.
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby Alex M. » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:41 am

Are those clamps hitting the glass and the base plate? I.e. Clamp bottom, base plate, adjustment screws, heated bed, glass and clamp top?

If so, I’m not sure that would be a good idea since I would think it would effect the bed leveling. Definitely couldn’t use them with spring mod for bed leveling.

RogerSt
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby RogerSt » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:02 am

I do not use clamps.
I use silicon pads and i loveit.
i put q square silicon pad in each corner and a bigger in the middle.
It works perfect.
The glass stay on place and it's very easy to remove.
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dmtulsa
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby dmtulsa » Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:48 pm

They do go over the glass and bottom of plate. I thought about what your talking about . I ran a dial indicator over the glass and the clamps made no difference. They are just tightened snugly with fingers only, no wrench. Seems to work fine. No problems yet. Yet being the key word.

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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:30 pm

I'm going to predict that the nozzle will someday run into those clamps. It runs into the binder clips too. To get around this problem I have tried a number of solutions including drilling holes in my glass build plate that index to pins sticking out of my heater bed. The pins do not go through to the top of the glass by the way. Anyway, I now use silicon heat strips all around the perimeter of the glass. See my posting on this here: http://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8623

From now on I don't need or use clips or pins.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

detroitus
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby detroitus » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:23 pm

I took a slightly different approach to prevent the glass from sliding on my bed. I just made little stops that clamp to the aluminum structure through the slotted holes to provide upright guides that the glass just nestles between. They are out of the way of the nozzles and not actually affecting the leveling of the bed in any way, while preventing even the slightest bit of y-slide between the glass and the plate. Glass is still just as easy to remove as it was without the mod.

It may be a little hard to see in the images, but I'm printing ABS right now and don't want to open up the door. Hard to get good shots.
Attachments
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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:35 pm

Nice idea using the stops for the y-slide. I have actually never encountered a problem with the glass sliding in that direction. Was that the problem you are solving?

You still have the clips to contend with. That was my main gripe -- I kept hitting the clips with my body, the nozzle, or a tool and they fly off into the room -- somewhere. The silicon heat transfer material insures that the heat is trapped under the build plate as it is sealed all the way around. This is why I don't use small square pads at the corners and in the middle. As pointed out, the downside is that each build plate needs the tape. I would like to find a solution that will stick to the heated bed and accept a plain sheet of glass onto it. As it is now, the silicon material sticks to the glass better than the heated bed and so comes off with the glass each time. I simply decided to leave it on the glass rather than transfer it back to the heated bed, but that could be done.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

EldRick
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby EldRick » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:32 pm

Maybe sprinkle a little talcum on the silicone to reduce the adhesion?

detroitus
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby detroitus » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:47 pm

JohnSays wrote:Nice idea using the stops for the y-slide. I have actually never encountered a problem with the glass sliding in that direction. Was that the problem you are solving?


It was. I never had a problem with the clips in front per se, other than just a general annoyance with using office supplies as a mechanical solution on a multi-thousand dollar system that was supposedly designed by engineers. I did have a problem with the glass sliding off to the side every time I printed something large, though. Adding more clips to the side seemed to solve that problem, but then I was having collisions with the new clips once I did that and was really annoyed by the encroachment onto printable area. So, the little bumper rails were an easy solution. I WOULD like to get rid of the clips on the front, though.

I like the idea of sealing in the heat (at least partially, at the edges) the way you describe with the silicone, but I get way too much utility out of flipping my glass beds over to use both sides to ever affix something like silicone to one side of it.

There has to be an approach that will make all of us happy without using those stupid paperclips, though, right?

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Casale8
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby Casale8 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:09 pm

detroitus wrote:
JohnSays wrote:Nice idea using the stops for the y-slide. I have actually never encountered a problem with the glass sliding in that direction. Was that the problem you are solving?


It was. I never had a problem with the clips in front per se, other than just a general annoyance with using office supplies as a mechanical solution on a multi-thousand dollar system that was supposedly designed by engineers.


JUST WANT TO ADD...

Isn't it a great engineering solution to use super simple and already existing parts - like the clips - that work (well might I had), costs less than the engineering and design solution most proper companies that have engineering control procedures go through? I think so.

Guess what? We can print and design our own solution as users... However, if the original clips wear, we can spend less $.10 for the replacement...

The clip solution costs less than it did for me to type this response on the clock.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

detroitus
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby detroitus » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:38 pm

Casale8 wrote:
detroitus wrote:
JohnSays wrote:Nice idea using the stops for the y-slide. I have actually never encountered a problem with the glass sliding in that direction. Was that the problem you are solving?


It was. I never had a problem with the clips in front per se, other than just a general annoyance with using office supplies as a mechanical solution on a multi-thousand dollar system that was supposedly designed by engineers.


JUST WANT TO ADD...

Isn't it a great engineering solution to use super simple and already existing parts - like the clips - that work (well might I had), costs less than the engineering and design solution most proper companies that have engineering control procedures go through? I think so.

Guess what? We can print and design our own solution as users... However, if the original clips wear, we can spend less $.10 for the replacement...

The clip solution costs less than it did for me to type this response on the clock.


Clearly it's not a great solution if people are having issues with their nozzles striking the clips. I haven't had it happen to me yet but I can see how it very easily can. If you have to pause a fairly large print soon after it has started, the extruder will home itself without making any changes to the z position. This can be very bad if it happened to be near the front of the build surface when paused because it can crash right into the clips.

So as far as engineering solutions go, janky-but-works-perfectly is great. Janky-but-only-works-under-ideal-conditions is a fail.

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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:05 pm

EldRick wrote:Maybe sprinkle a little talcum on the silicone to reduce the adhesion?


Oh, I like that idea.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:14 pm

Casale8 wrote:JUST WANT TO ADD...

Isn't it a great engineering solution to use super simple and already existing parts - like the clips - that work (well might I had), costs less than the engineering and design solution most proper companies that have engineering control procedures go through? I think so.

Guess what? We can print and design our own solution as users... However, if the original clips wear, we can spend less $.10 for the replacement...

The clip solution costs less than it did for me to type this response on the clock.


I tend to print many of the same parts and they take up most of the plate. I was hitting the clips repeatedly and it was more than an annoyance. i had to have a solution that was to hand and I used the silicon strips. Also, because i have a surplus of PEI build plates to hand, I don't need to ever turn them over. I mean, it's just window glass, so super cheap.

But as EldRick has mentioned, maybe talcum would keep the silicon attached to the build plate. Or maybe there is a heat tape on the market that only has one sticky side. I'm way too busy to investigate but I am interested in an even better solution.

Also, the N2 is supposed to print 12x12, but how can it with clips on the plate taking up space?

Btw, Prusa now has a magnetic PEI plate. It sticks to the heated bed with magnets and is itself PEI powder coated steel. Many are saying it is the best upgrade of the new Mk3. I've investigated the YouTube DIY magnetic plates, but these are not the same.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

detroitus
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby detroitus » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:42 pm

JohnSays wrote:
But as EldRick has mentioned, maybe talcum would keep the silicon attached to the build plate. Or maybe there is a heat tape on the market that only has one sticky side. I'm way too busy to investigate but I am interested in an even better solution.



Maybe something like this?

https://www.mcmaster.com/#8645k35/=1djcuyi

zemlin
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby zemlin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 4:40 pm

I have no issue with the binder clips, but I didn't like having them in the build volume, so I moved my Y-axis limit switch, shifted the bed position a bit, and now have a 12x12 build area that is free of binder clips.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6054
The bed shown in the photos is PEI over 1/4" aluminum, but I also use glass plates - the clips are in the margins outside the build area. A nozzle strike isn't impossible, but I'd have to work at it more.

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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:37 pm

detroitus wrote:
JohnSays wrote:
But as EldRick has mentioned, maybe talcum would keep the silicon attached to the build plate. Or maybe there is a heat tape on the market that only has one sticky side. I'm way too busy to investigate but I am interested in an even better solution.



Maybe something like this?

https://www.mcmaster.com/#8645k35/=1djcuyi


Foam will insulate, and that is opposite of what we want.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:46 pm

zemlin wrote:I have no issue with the binder clips, but I didn't like having them in the build volume, so I moved my Y-axis limit switch, shifted the bed position a bit, and now have a 12x12 build area that is free of binder clips.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6054
The bed shown in the photos is PEI over 1/4" aluminum, but I also use glass plates - the clips are in the margins outside the build area. A nozzle strike isn't impossible, but I'd have to work at it more.


I'm confused by your solution to getting 12x12 out of the N2. I simply position my PEI 12x12 sheet at the front and left edges of the build plate and print with my left hand nozzle. That gives me very close to 12x12 of actual print space. I think that unless I absolutely had to have that tiny bit of extra space, my solution is workable and very easy to implement -- as in no additional steps. I have no binders or any hindrance and all I had to do was place my glass on some silicone strips. I feel I must be missing something that you have spotted?
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

zemlin
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby zemlin » Mon Jul 02, 2018 6:00 pm

JohnSays wrote:I feel I must be missing something that you have spotted?

I don't think so ... except that I wanted to get a full 12" square ... mainly because I could. You eliminated the clips by using sticky pads. I went a more laborious route and kept the clips, but moved them out of the way.

detroitus
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby detroitus » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:19 pm

JohnSays wrote:
Foam will insulate, and that is opposite of what we want.


True. Of course, they have adhesive-backed silicone sheets in a ton of varieties. McMaster is a good resource for stuff like that.

If you're interested:
https://www.mcmaster.com/#9010k41/=1djjfcp

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JohnSays
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Re: N2-V2 bed plate clamps

Postby JohnSays » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:46 pm

I wonder how well they conduct heat? The stuff I use is 0.5mm and is made for CPU cooling. I get it on Amazon.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+


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