Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

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socke
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby socke » Sun Sep 11, 2016 12:56 pm

This other new KS project could overcome the welding problem:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/81 ... ilament-3d

It seems to be a very promising alternative...

NewbPilot
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:02 pm

Jetguy wrote:Check out 4 color Benchy, took 15 hours to print 4 at a time. It's one thing to get a finely tuned benchy, it's a whole different world to get a 4 color finely tuned Benchy.

First picture is the in-progress print to show these were printed as one piece, not glued together or painted or any trickery. It's the real deal, adding 4 colors to a single nozzle. Printed on the Raise 3D N1 with single nozzle and the Bondtech extruder upgrade, V2 hotend with insulated heater block, and the V2H 0.4mm hard coated nozzle. Files were sliced with Simplify 3D.

Absolutely outrageous.

It makes me wish I saved the $200 on the N1 DUal Extruder and put it towards a Mosaic.

Perrko
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Perrko » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:41 am

This is really impressive.
The day that you can use different filaments without worrying about the weld between them is possibly the day that printers with 2 heads will be obsolete, unless you really have the need for more than 4 types of colors/filament at the same time.

Will consider this the day I get my own 3d printer.

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:37 pm

Finally got a fair print of the https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2167794
Multi-Color Longhuo the Eastern Dragon
Attachments
DSC04625.JPG
DSC04624.JPG
DSC04623.JPG

bellatrixzen
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Tue Jul 18, 2017 1:42 pm

very nice!

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walshlg
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby walshlg » Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:35 pm

hah ha haaa that is a great print!

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:24 pm

Update time!! So I am lucky enough to have one of the first Mosaic Palette Plus in my hands. I've had it for less than 40 hours total now and printing nearly non-stop since I unboxed it.
First, let me say a few things about the new model.
#1 The combination of new firmware, new splicer mechanism, and new software version all works together to bring a totally different user experience to the table.
The new firmware is much more responsive, much better menus and specific wording in instructions. It really is night and day and I had direct comparison to the original VS the new plus side by side.

#2 The splices are out of this world better. There is no talking around it, the original side only splice setup before worked, but it was splices that could break if bent in a certain direction. Setting up your guide tubes and feeder to never bend that direction- well there in was the challenge. Gone is that limitation and experience. The new splices are as strong if not stronger than uncut filament. I'm just blown away at the difference. YES, I did try Scaffold support material and PLA and yes it absolutely works!!! Getting ready to try TPU and other combos.

If I liked the palette before, this one is a whole different level. I'm literally packing up my other units to send in for the upgrade!!!


Again, why this matters and why I'm bragging. Right before MRRF this year, I was trying to decide what to bring to demonstrate. One thing I tried was the original palette with my mid sized printer after going through several iterations of trying to get the encoder feed guide tube long enough to reach the extruder and limit bend radius. And I got one, count it one print off using this setup and roughly meter long guide tube and the original non-plus palette. But it was an absolute challenge. Splice breaks, even just the initial calibration sequence was a massive challenge. This is not to knock the original, I DID get it to work with every printer I ever attempted (large, small, Delta, Bowden, Core XY, Cartesian, you name it) but the steps and knowledge I used and needed to get there- might be a challenge for other users. Again, just for reference, I demonstrated the original Palette at MRRF (Midwest RepRap Festival) earlier this year using the N1 and was printing live at the show MRRF keychains in 4 color and also setup another palette for some friends on a genuine Prusa i3 in front of Joseph Prusa himself. The original palette can and does work.


Now, with the new PLUS, GONE are those limitations. Now I have perfect splices every time without fear. I know I can relax and not worry as much about bend radius, bend direction, and other pain in the neck details. What I'm saying is, Plus opens a new door up with the multi material splicing. Now you CAN use support material AND multiple other colors of plastic in the same print.


Again, I'm barely 2 days into this (honestly, I've had it less than 40 hours at this exact moment in time) and it's just been flawless.
So some prints, first one was kind of simple just to get the setup late night on first unboxing.
DSC04636.JPG
DSC04636.JPG (31.27 KiB) Viewed 1031 times

Flawless 4 color print, and notice the now smaller purge tower/block.

So, the big question I had to answer for everyone, multi material (PVA Support). Sorry for the dark pictures, another late night print.
DSC04645.JPG
DSC04645.JPG (18.18 KiB) Viewed 1031 times

Again, that is a 3 color + PVA (http://e3d-online.com/E3D-175-SCAFFOLD-GREY) support material print. Came out absolutely flawless.
DSC04644.JPG
DSC04644.JPG (31.62 KiB) Viewed 1031 times

I'm still washing out the support so the gears can turn.

NewbPilot
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby NewbPilot » Thu Jul 20, 2017 10:52 am

Jetguy wrote:Update time!! So I am lucky enough to have one of the first Mosaic Palette Plus in my hands. I've had it for less than 40 hours total now and printing nearly non-stop since I unboxed it.
....
If I liked the palette before, this one is a whole different level. I'm literally packing up my other units to send in for the upgrade!!!
...
So, the big question I had to answer for everyone, multi material (PVA Support). Sorry for the dark pictures, another late night print.
...
I'm still washing out the support so the gears can turn.
'

This post has us quite excited. We paid for our Palette+ on Saturday, got confirmation on Monday, and it should be here in 30 days or so. Love seeing your results.

I am assuming you're printing PLA with the PVA. What temps are you using? I have read that printing PVA over 200 causes it to solidify in the hot end. I usually am printing my PLA at 215, and even higher with this new foray into 0.8mm nozzles.

Thanks for your updates!

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woofy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby woofy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:41 am

Jetguy wrote:Yes, the system has feedback and attempts corrections. But again, there are limits here. Filament is cut and spliced to commanded lengths per the gcode. When you printer makes one tiny difference in actual VS commanded, that cascades and shifts everything. If that shift is greater than the buffer of the purge tower= wrong color in wrong section of print.


Just curious how palette does the feedback. How does it know how the colour boundaries at the nozzle are shifting on a long print. Is there a camera looking at the wipe tower?
Raise3D N2+, Ultimaker2 & UP plus printers.

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:48 am

I printed this at 200C for that exact reason and was using Esun brand PLA and Scaffold support material which is not exactly the same as Esun's PVA.
In fact, reading the page on Scaffold filament http://e3d-online.com/E3D-175-SCAFFOLD-GREY they say specifically to print at 215C.

FWIW, in the past, I had a roll of Esun PVA. I did print with it a couple of test prints for a friend with my N2 and dual extruders (not Palette) a while back and absolutely, Esun PVA is different than scaffold. Due to moisture issues with the Esun PVA, I no longer have that spool (they go bad quickly exposed to open air after even just a few days and it's a use it fast or lose it kind of situation).

To this end, Mosaic is specifically specifying that you first try Scaffold if you use a PVA type of support material. They tested this extensively and whatever special mix scaffold is, it works well with the palette plus splicing and takes higher temps without the typical jammed hotend that other brands of PVA can have happen.

They also gave me another tip- to use Polysmooth filament as support material VS Scaffold. Why? Because PVA style material just turns to a slimy goo when you get it wet and doesn't fully dissolve. I never tried it but do have Polysmooth and the Polysher unit but never thought that Polysmooth will completely wash away in alcohol when soaked. Also, PVA may swell when it absorbs water and this ultimately broke the nice gears print (split the upper and lower plates from the pressure)- hence why i didn't yet post pictures because I was sad after an 11 hour print and more hours washing the Scaffold out only to result in failure).

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:56 am

woofy wrote:
Jetguy wrote:Yes, the system has feedback and attempts corrections. But again, there are limits here. Filament is cut and spliced to commanded lengths per the gcode. When you printer makes one tiny difference in actual VS commanded, that cascades and shifts everything. If that shift is greater than the buffer of the purge tower= wrong color in wrong section of print.


Just curious how palette does the feedback. How does it know how the colour boundaries at the nozzle are shifting on a long print. Is there a camera looking at the wipe tower?


No, everything is done by distance, however, there are 2 tricks.
Pings are a function where the Chroma software post editing the gcode adds a short dwell of a known time at points in the purge block or tower (or side transitions once they enable that in Chroma 2.0). These wait periods at a known point in the gcode cause the system to not move filament past the encoder and so the palette can physically detect this timing and thus logical "where I am in the gcode" which is what corresponds to what color the printer should be printing. Again, this all works on distances and since the palette knows what it made filament wise, what the exact distance of the factory made guide tube before the encoder is, and this G4 dwell in the gcode in the purge tower is a feedback point with the palette firmware.

The OTHER way is the PONG by the palette. To double check the encoder and pings, periodically the sliding tube gap between the encoder tube and the palette will let the printer consume filament while the palette stops pushing out filament. This causes the buffer gap to grow smaller. The end of the encoder tube has a magnet and inside the palette has a hall effect sensor to detect when the magnet is near the body of the palette. This again is a way since the guide tube is a known exact length made by mosaic, the magnet triggers a known distance from the body of the palette, it can measure and get another feedback point.

And that is the trick with the palette, it has NO electrical connection to the printer. It does everything to adapt to various printers using these 2 methods of cross checking.

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woofy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby woofy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:16 pm

Oh that's very clever, I like that kind of lateral thinking.
Thanks for the explanation.
Raise3D N2+, Ultimaker2 & UP plus printers.

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walshlg
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby walshlg » Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:54 pm

So cool. So are they adding an option for more colors, 6, 8??

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:08 pm

No, they are not making 6-8 input versions, however, there is a manual option mid print to change the filament into the palette. This allows you to change greater than 4 (so 6-8, 20, however many you can stand to do). It's middle ground compromise feature.

sylus
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby sylus » Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:46 pm

The palette coupling to bondtech extruder is reallly a great addon
Image
Even for mass production
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1831352486881990&set=a.401093789907874.113657.100000217707348&type=3&theater
New version Palette + should be a better improvement (I will test it in August after update my unit)

brennanfoo
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:45 pm

Brennan from the Mosaic team here. Thanks for sharing! Always awesome to see prints from you, Jetguy and sylus.

bellatrixzen
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:55 pm

Just received ship notice from Mosaic. First batch of orders heading out!

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:27 pm

Also, Chroma 2.0, the software used with the Palette was officially released today. This includes firmware updates for the original Palette and the software supports both versions (Palette and Palette+).
https://mosaicmanufacturing.zendesk.com ... 827-Chroma

Details of the new update:
Update log: Chroma 2

Important: when updating from Chroma 1.x, be sure to follow the prompt and fill in the additional profile fields! This is important to ensure your files are interpreted correctly!

Raft, a brand-new print processing engine that improves how GCode and other printer instructions are handled internally
no more start sequence headers (Cura) or end-of-start-sequence delimiters (Cura/Simplify3D)!
support for variable layer heights in a single print
support for Simplify3D 4 and Cura 2 (more slicers planned in the future!)
vastly improved the way transition towers are generated
multi-material support for Palette+
Material Profiles can be customized under Settings > Material Profiles...
Chroma includes default profiles for PLA, PETG, and Soluble materials
these default profiles can be edited
additional custom profiles can be created, including profiles for TPU
materials can be selected next to the color selectors in the toolbar when a file is loaded (Default PLA is used if none are selected)
NOTE: printer profiles no longer include a Splice Heat Factor setting. Heat Factor can now be customized by changing material profile settings instead
a brand-new setup and calibration experience to help get you started
printer presets that you can use to automatically fill in your printer’s settings
ability to select custom colors and give them custom names, which will be displayed on Palette!
added an optional First Piece Length field for gradient mode
great for giving your gradient vases a solid-color base!
added an option to display origin axes in the visualizer
support for generating MSF 1.4 files with multi-material information


Update log: Firmware

Palette/Palette+ firmware 2.0.1
Main Menu

Improved the overall responsiveness of the menu.
Filenames longer than the width of the lcd will now scroll, allowing you to see the full name of a file.
Changed the menu structure.
Removed Single Color mode.
Renamed Manual Control to Utilities.
Added Preferences, which allows you to toggle sounds.
Small changes to Diagnostics.

Print Menu
By turning or pressing the knob during a print, you are now able to access a menu that introduces more features and print specific information.

Statistics
Last 10 ping offsets.
Last 10 pong offsets.
Length of filament each drive has consumed.
Change Filament
Swap out the filament in a particular drive to another spool.
Useful if a spool is running low and will fail to last the remainder of the print, or if you want to switch up the color used.
Cancel Print
Preferences
Diagnostics

Loading/Calibration Sequence

Revamped loading instructions for a more intuitive loading/calibration process.
Added an animation to reflect the filament creation state of palette.
Will show filament being created when the magnet is touching palette.
Will blink if palette is splicing.
Confirm a print is loaded before starting your print.
Countdown to nozzle now begins at 200mm

Other

Added time elapsed for prints.
Supports custom color names with MSF1.4.
Reorganized the monitor UI.

Palette+ Specific Changes

Preferences -> Reset Tube resets the splice count and length for your current splicer tube. Ensure you reset this when you replace your splice tube.
Added the current tube length and splice count to Diagnostics.

Pierre
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Pierre » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:31 pm

very impressed by your results, I just ordered a palette+, but maybe I've been too fast : will it work with the N2+ ? ( or only with the N1 ?)

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:50 pm

The new Palette + will absolutely work with the N2 and N2 Plus.
I will create specific instructions and profiles.

Here is the biggest reason why you had not seen me post about N2/n2 plus using the original palette was a limitation of the original splices and the feed tube guide path is longer for the N2 and N2 Plus. Now with the new splicing method and insane amount of strength and ease of use that the Palette + model adds, it makes the N2 and N2+ that much easier to use.


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