Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

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brennanfoo
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:10 pm

@bellatrixzen Awesome! Thanks for sharing those. May we share those on http://twitter.com/PalettePrinted and elsewhere?

Yup, this update includes the G-code fixes thanks to Jetguy!

Here's what it looks like:
Image

This is found in your Printer Profile under the Dimensions tab.
Last edited by brennanfoo on Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brennanfoo
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:14 pm

By the way @bellatrixzen, do you have any suggestions for the ideal PTFE tube length for the tube that goes between the Scroll Wheel and your N2's extruder? IIRC you mentioned that you had to customize yours -- we don't want users to have to do this, so we're happy to create custom tubes that are ideal for Raise printers. Would certainly appreciate any thoughts here!

bellatrixzen
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Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:29 pm

@brennanfoo I cut down the 4mm(OD) clear tube that came with my raise to 175mm and couple it to the Mosaic tube with a 4mm to 5.75mm coupling I printed.
Keep in mind I am using a bondtech directdrive hybrid, so the tall Raise3D extruder riser that comes with the N2+ Dual is not in use and will alter that length a bit, probably making the extension longer to avoid a bending radius the can kink or possibly damage a splice.
Also, my scroll wheel is mounted to the side of the N2+ as seen in this picture:
IMG_20170805_092541254.jpg


Sure you can post any pics I posted, no worries.
Hope that helps!

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:59 pm

@bellatrixzen Many thanks for both the information about your tubes, and for permission to share your pictures.

NewbPilot
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Location: West Palm Beach, FL
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:15 pm

Jetguy wrote:The new Palette + will absolutely work with the N2 and N2 Plus.
I will create specific instructions and profiles.

Here is the biggest reason why you had not seen me post about N2/n2 plus using the original palette was a limitation of the original splices and the feed tube guide path is longer for the N2 and N2 Plus. Now with the new splicing method and insane amount of strength and ease of use that the Palette + model adds, it makes the N2 and N2+ that much easier to use.

-edited for updated info-
The team from MMfg got back to me so quickly, a delight! Thanks Jonny, et al!

Apparently the single extruder (n2 at least) does use this Teflon tube guide
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1523612
as long as i unscrew the cable chain, install, and re-screw the chain. Not elegant, but functional. I will ask my son to re-model it to fit a little nicer.

I also had a problem with setting up Chroma (newest version 2.1.0 downloaded today) - i got an error regarding feed settings. Using S3D to slice, with your profile - but I couldnt use your yml file - it doesnt find it when i try to import. I get this error:
Screenshot 2017-09-13 15.08.44.png



I did email Mosaic support - and they said my starting gCode (taken from your fff/profile) had a weird value within the start sequence, line 209 just says "G1 F”. It looks like there’s a typo in the start sequence—not sure what speed you wanted to use there but they can probably just get rid of the line entirely.

I wrote the following to Jonny, but maybe someone using IM and S3D has an answer relative to both softwares?
Im curious if my setup of S3D is incorrect, or if i’m missing something. Again, I copied JetGuys … but there could be version or config differences. This is the starting Gcode sequence I have in S3D

G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 F
M117 Printing...
M1001
; **** end of start.gcode ****


and here is the starting gCode i have in IdeaMaker (from Raise3D)
G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 Z15.0 F{travel_speed}
G92 E0
G1 F140 E29
G1 X20 Y0 F140 E30
G92 E0
G1 F{travel_speed}
M117 Printing...


Should i try replacing the S3D starting with the IdeaMaker? I know that when I slice with IDeamaker, it purges a bit, then moves the print head over to the starting position then levels the Z where as with S3D, it actually levels the Z then moves the head, with no purge. Not sure if that’s on purpose.

Thanks as always, i learn so much from your posts!

taco
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Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:40 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby taco » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:38 am

Has anyone used the Palette+ & N2 Plus with filaments requiring the lid on the printer? I'm wondering how the spliced filament could be fed to the extruder in such cases.
Last edited by taco on Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:33 am

#1 as of this moment, higher temp materials like ABS and HIPS are experimental with the palette ( https://mosaicmanufacturing.zendesk.com ... t-material ) and palette+ ( https://www.mosaicmanufacturing.com/blo ... lette-plus ).
#2 since the motor brand change on Raise 3D and even before that, the lid seals a bit too well and can cause the extruder motors and stock extruder feed block to overheat when the combination of higher extruder nozzle temps and bed temps causing high ambient temps is used. So the recommendation was to space or lift the lid up anyway to leave a small but controlled vent gap. See this thread viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1709&p=16520&hilit=lid+vent#p16520
#3 The palette and palette+ box is wider than the filament bay area with the door closed. There is no orientation on that side of the printer where the stock filament spools go it can fit without interfering with bed travel. As such, the one place on the N2 and N2+ it can fit is the unused space at the rear of the printer, vertically there is a wide enough space for both the palette to fit and 4 filament spool mounts. The issue then is that the rear panel is not a door stock to this opening and modifications to hinge it, add a latch, change quite a few other things to make this the active filament bay vs the side mount, make a stand or mount for the palette(+) and drill a feed guide tube hole through the upper deck of the printer and use a longer guide tube setup on the encoder. Otherwise, use the gap method of the lid (something you should be using anyway to control chamber temp maximum rise anyway and external stand.

The one higher temp material that some users had success with is PETG, so it's not completely impossible that the palette might one day have settings or a combination for ABS and HIPS, it's just not an officially supported material as of this exact second to my knowledge.
Material not listed? Contact filament@mosaicmanufacturing.com if you have any questions or requests to test materials. If you print with a particular filament and want us to test its compatibility with Palette+, contact us, send us a few meters, and we’ll happily test it for you.

taco
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby taco » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:41 pm

Thanks for this info, Jetguy. I did read up on the overheating issue you're referring to, and just have one quick follow up question: is it possible to mitigate this problem by any means OTHER than lifting the lid? For example, by using an alternative extruder or some other alternative hardware less susceptible to the effects of the heat?

Also, about the "rear door" modification you describe -- is this a real mod that has been documented and could be repeated, or are you just speculating on what might be necessary?

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:12 pm

"is it possible to mitigate this problem by any means OTHER than lifting the lid"
Flat out no.
The closed lid and size leads to stupid high temps over time. This is bad for ANYTHING in that space. It's not helping you print, it's not helping the hardware, and it's not good for anything plastic that is part of the extruder assembly. Further, the air cooled cold section of the extruder also needs a controlled ambient air temp. You can only shed heat if the air is cooler than what you are trying to cool.
Again, it's the shape and construction of the lid is so air tight, the hot air rises and just sits. Over time this just gets hotter and hotter. Since the lid is not very conductive, even the large surface area does not matter and all you do is cook the top of your printer. Being it's made from Styrene plastic glued and pained together, there is an upper limit before it deforms. Again, in just a few hours of time the entire upper air space of the printer with a lid on far exceeds reasonable temps. Unless you replace the entire top section of the printer- you need to control this temperature rise. Again, just as you can have too cold of temperature for a certain plastic- you can have too hot of an ambient chamber temp that literally cooks not only your print but the very mechanics and plastic parts of the printer.

This is why Stratasys still sells printers because they have the patents for separating the mechanics from the heat chamber and dozens of patents on controlling airflow and temperatures. They cost tens of thousands of dollars, they are heavier and made entirely of metal with very few if any plastic parts exposed inside the chamber and any plastic that is there is specially made and thus expensive.

Rear door mod does not exist in anything but concept. I have not yet drilled holes in the printer nor fabricated or designed much of this mod. I got as far as removing the rear panels and somewhat mocking up. Basically, enough to measure and say "it's possible".
Last edited by Jetguy on Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:23 pm

I would go as far as saying consider the lid a dust cover. You cannot print PLA with it on for long and ABS and other high temps plastics do need controlled chamber temps, the sealed design of the lid leads to overheating and is as bad for the print as it is for the printer itself. The fact is has absolutely zero vents and the overall size of the N2/N2Plus leads to this uncontrolled rise in temps. The printer is actually sealed too well if you can believe it. Great for dust control- bad without additional fans, cooling ducts, hoses, and filtered air.

caxton3d
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby caxton3d » Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:28 pm

I would have to disagree with Jetguy saying that you cannot print PLA with the cover on for long periods. I have printed parts taking over 80 hours with the lid on and have not experienced problems due to excessive temperature. Of course the ambient temperature must be so some significance. In my printing environment it is around 20C daytime and 15C night time.
Pattern making for the restoration of vintage Dennis Fire Engines

NewbPilot
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:33 pm

brennanfoo wrote:@bellatrixzen Many thanks for both the information about your tubes, and for permission to share your pictures.


(small history followed by a few questions at the end)

First week with my P+ has been hit and miss. First print was a terrible failure due to not understanding loading sequence. Second print was a mild success. However, the outgoing tube dislodged from the P+ and caused me to have to open the machine to replace it (per the support article).
Setup during the next few prints were terrible failures again. I read this thread again and kicked the heat up from 2 to 4, took speed from 60mm/s per Jetguy's FFF file down to 45mm/s, and then printed a nice 6 or 7 hour 50-60 splice 2-color print. It was a perfect success. Nothing wrong, at all. Color was perfect!

Interestingly, during the setup of the very next print the outgoing tube dislodged again and i had to repair it again.

Sadly, the last print, a whopping 17 hour 250 splice 2-color print. failed after 14 hours. At least 1, maybe 2, splices failed causing them to stick in the feeding tube and air print for a while until i noticed it. It was gorgeous up until that point.

Only thing I can think is the palette was below the printer by a good 10-11 inches and maybe the upward feed was too much? not a lot of bends, 2 really. When i pulled the failed filament out of the tube once i stopped it, the two pieces literally just fell out of the tube.

So - first question - is 60mm/s too fast? is 45mm/s too fast? a 17 hour 2-color print was a bit of a stretch considering it was just one of those fidget cubes. When sliced in S3D it was only supposed to be 9 hours, the swap added double the time.

Second, one of the issues im having is the 1st piece of filament will feed out, up the tube to the scroll wheel, then get stuck. it's a tiny bit bent as it feeds and sticks each time. the first two prints didnt have this problem, now, every feed does. I've swapped filament makers, types, colors, etc. I cut it perfectly straight and will even straighten the piece a little bit as i feed it. Ive used brand new rolls, so absolutely not the end of the roll tightly wound around the spool hub. Is this common? I have to unscrew the scroll wheel and feed it manually each time.

Third - was that movement option JetGuy mentioned removed? I dont see it in Chroma any longer.

Finally - any way to figure out if the splice is weak due to my machine, my settings, or bends? I found it interesting that the two ends literally just fell apart without being touched.

Thanks
Matt

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:56 am

Weak splices are a palette+ drive calibration issue or skipped step inside the mosaic palette+. There are a dozen reasons it can happen but this is completely a palette thing- not the printer.

Speed at the printer is what your printer can do.

Less bends and less distance is always better on the guide tube. Less distance is key- less splices already precut and made before the system can apply length corrections via ping and pong feedback.

Jetguy
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:58 am

The simplest way to find out a little bit of the why a weak or bad splice is run a demo file without the printer. These are included on the SD card. Running these files, they will make the shortest splice possible but use the 4 input one. By using the colors, you can figure out what input drive might be the issue.

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
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Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:59 pm

What Jetguy said.

Also, the filament getting stuck in the scroll wheel: Happens to me 6 out of every 10 prints. I just watch it and when filament first comes into scroll wheel housing, I wiggle the incoming ptfe tube a bit while putting pressure on the magnet and it will pop into place and continue feeding through.

One thing I would love love love to have for the Palette is a clear lexan top cover. Not because I have had too many problems requiring me to inspect the drive or splice systems, but because it's pretty darn cool to watch it work....

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:17 pm

NewbPilot wrote:
brennanfoo wrote:@bellatrixzen Many thanks for both the information about your tubes, and for permission to share your pictures.


(small history followed by a few questions at the end)

First week with my P+ has been hit and miss. First print was a terrible failure due to not understanding loading sequence. Second print was a mild success. However, the outgoing tube dislodged from the P+ and caused me to have to open the machine to replace it (per the support article).
Setup during the next few prints were terrible failures again. I read this thread again and kicked the heat up from 2 to 4, took speed from 60mm/s per Jetguy's FFF file down to 45mm/s, and then printed a nice 6 or 7 hour 50-60 splice 2-color print. It was a perfect success. Nothing wrong, at all. Color was perfect!

Interestingly, during the setup of the very next print the outgoing tube dislodged again and i had to repair it again.

Sadly, the last print, a whopping 17 hour 250 splice 2-color print. failed after 14 hours. At least 1, maybe 2, splices failed causing them to stick in the feeding tube and air print for a while until i noticed it. It was gorgeous up until that point.

Only thing I can think is the palette was below the printer by a good 10-11 inches and maybe the upward feed was too much? not a lot of bends, 2 really. When i pulled the failed filament out of the tube once i stopped it, the two pieces literally just fell out of the tube.

So - first question - is 60mm/s too fast? is 45mm/s too fast? a 17 hour 2-color print was a bit of a stretch considering it was just one of those fidget cubes. When sliced in S3D it was only supposed to be 9 hours, the swap added double the time.

Second, one of the issues im having is the 1st piece of filament will feed out, up the tube to the scroll wheel, then get stuck. it's a tiny bit bent as it feeds and sticks each time. the first two prints didnt have this problem, now, every feed does. I've swapped filament makers, types, colors, etc. I cut it perfectly straight and will even straighten the piece a little bit as i feed it. Ive used brand new rolls, so absolutely not the end of the roll tightly wound around the spool hub. Is this common? I have to unscrew the scroll wheel and feed it manually each time.

Third - was that movement option JetGuy mentioned removed? I dont see it in Chroma any longer.

Finally - any way to figure out if the splice is weak due to my machine, my settings, or bends? I found it interesting that the two ends literally just fell apart without being touched.

Thanks
Matt


Hey Matt,

Sorry to hear about the issues with your long print.
1. 60mm/s shouldn't be a problem. The biggest constraint is how long it takes to splice, but your heat settings have only added 2 seconds to the splice time. There shouldn't be any need to decrease the speed.
2. Bellatrixzen's tips work for this. Sorry about this! Future versions will improve on this.
3. In Chroma, go to Settings > Enabled Advanced Features. Then, go to Settings > Printer Profile > Edit > Dimensions > Movement Pauses.
4. If most of your splices are looking good except for the odd random one, then I believe Jetguy is correct -- something probably caused skipping in the ingoing drives. I assume the filament is easy to unspool? Consider experimenting with Splice Tuning mode to make sure the splices are strong beforehand. One Palette+ owner (Willy Evans) discusses using splice tuning mode here:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/130130450956865/permalink/139744196662157/?comment_id=139777033325540.

Please don't hesitate to reach out at support@mosaicmanufacturing.com!

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:18 pm

bellatrixzen wrote:What Jetguy said.

Also, the filament getting stuck in the scroll wheel: Happens to me 6 out of every 10 prints. I just watch it and when filament first comes into scroll wheel housing, I wiggle the incoming ptfe tube a bit while putting pressure on the magnet and it will pop into place and continue feeding through.

One thing I would love love love to have for the Palette is a clear lexan top cover. Not because I have had too many problems requiring me to inspect the drive or splice systems, but because it's pretty darn cool to watch it work....


You could print this in transparent... :lol:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2289833

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:09 pm

brennanfoo wrote:
bellatrixzen wrote:What Jetguy said.

Also, the filament getting stuck in the scroll wheel: Happens to me 6 out of every 10 prints. I just watch it and when filament first comes into scroll wheel housing, I wiggle the incoming ptfe tube a bit while putting pressure on the magnet and it will pop into place and continue feeding through.

One thing I would love love love to have for the Palette is a clear lexan top cover. Not because I have had too many problems requiring me to inspect the drive or splice systems, but because it's pretty darn cool to watch it work....


You could print this in transparent... :lol:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2289833



Oh, don't think I haven't considered it! But I have a nice sheet of acrylic here that is waiting for me to get bored one day this winter then a heat gun and wooden jig will be getting some use!

L3G
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:39 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby L3G » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:59 pm

Hi,
maybe somebody can help me out.
I did receive the Mosaic Palette+ and want to print the CalibrationPrint.
The Raise3D N2 Plus does not recognize the file CalibrationPrint.csf.gcode.
Slice programms I tried are Ideamaker, Cura and Simplify 3D.
Is there something special how to setup Chroma?
Any help is welcome.
Thanks in advance.
Xander
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Nov 06, 2017 5:28 am

If the file was sliced by ideaMaker, it will generate two after exporting, one called Gcode file, the other one is Data file. Please save both of these two to your memory card, then it can show the image of the file.
If it is not sliced by ideaMaker, then it will have no Data file, so that it cannot show the image of the print.
1.png
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