Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

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brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:49 pm

Jetguy wrote:Trying this, fingers crossed. I open the gcode in MS wordpad.
I do the following find and replace all.
Find "G92 E-1"
Replace with "G92 E0"

Then find "G1 E0 F1800"
Replace with "G1 E1 F1800"

This should only affect the created lines by Chroma purge tower and should correct the retraction not being recovered.
YMMV, Use at own risk, may damage, .......


We're looking into this & should have a fix for the next Chroma update so you shouldn't have to do this in the future.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:48 am

BTW, Kenny did finish early this morning. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2459577
DSC04822.JPG

Probably should have used support material on his hands and maybe lower extrusion temp.
DSC04821.JPG

This was a crazy 446 total splices and stayed in sync the entire time over 14 hours!!!
DSC04812.JPG

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:54 am

The Clown fish example is going to be even more epic. https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2362220
Progress so far. Can't wait to see this set finish.
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Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:25 pm

Cannot even tell you how blown away I am with this now. Yes, 3 of them the lower tail support failed and got knocked over, but that was just me needing to make a better support in the print file. Yes, it took like 15 hours of printing time but 4 at a time to be able to give these away at work, completely worth it.
Attachments
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Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:51 pm

BTW, needed to give proper attribution.
Roman Tyr
Username cipis also created a massive collection of characters and objects for multicolor printing.
https://www.thingiverse.com/cipis/designs

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:06 pm

Been away for several days. I'm having what I assume is a drive gear alignment issue in my bondtech. Things seem to go well for a while but then I lose extrusion at some point early on in print. I'm going to check alignment this afternoon and run a cpl test benchys before I mess with the palette for a bit.
Problem is, I only installed the bondtech a cpl days before my palette arrived. I was in the middle of getting it printing reliably when the shiny new box arrived and I kind of forgot to finish getting the extruder printing correctly before diving into the palette.

I'm definitely going to make those changes once I am back up to speed.
Thanks again Jetguy!

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:21 pm

Just a tip here and it would affect even a stock extruder, run the msf you had issues with in demo mode without printer. That will make a coil of cut and spliced filament, but make it without the printer so you can examine the splices. An error that I had was I was getting "necking" a reduced diameter section in the general region of the splice. What happens is that that necking smaller diameter isn't gripped by an extruder as it passes through and thus filament feed may stop. It's not jammed, just the extruder cannot grip undersized diameter.

And so lies a problem that Mosaic is working on with us to investigate clear guide tubes so that you can better see splices and identify such a splicing issue without having to do a "dry run" demo splice without the printer or encoder.
Again, I must stress this new system is so much better than the old way of splicing, but that does not mean that it's impossible with an error in settings to have a bad splice or something specific to your filament or even heaven forbid, a minor calibration issue specific to your palette.
Here is what a bad splice looks like. Yes, these are TPU splicing examples but also true of PLA.
First Splice TPU into PLA.jpg

And here is a good set of splices that are as about as perfect as you could expect to weld filament together.
Second splice PLA to TPU.jpg

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:32 pm

I had a splice just like that yesterday. Noticed it when it got caught up in the scroll wheel... I've also had several instances where the very first splice looks like it was only cut and not actually heated and spliced.

And yes, clear tubes would be great. Have been shining a flashlight through the stock tubes to try and inspect the splices as the go.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:09 pm

You may have the problem I encountered and fixed. Highly suggest you contact Mosaic support and show them pictures of your bad splices. The actual cause may be that one or more of the input or output feeder drive might be slightly out of adjustment. This causes a commanded distance VS actual distance problem, and that is how I have seen first hand how this happens. I know they go to great lengths to calibrate these at the factory and a series of my own mistakes made 2 of my drives go out of calibration (caused by a severe am where TPU wrapped around the drive gear because I stupidly used a wrong file setting that commanded too much compression during a splice).

Please don't take this as me saying you have a problem, just you should contact support and see what they think. Now that I understand this new system more and caused my own problems, I now understand the how and what affects splicing- but they are experts at Mosaic and can definitely tell you if there is an issue and how to fix it and they are extremely responsive.

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:27 pm

If it comes up again, I absolutely will.
I just tore down the bondtech and yep, I had it horribly misaligned. Corrected that and running a few test prints with the palette out of workflow.
Once I am comfortable my assembly is right, I will get back to the palette.

Damn, that clown fish it awesome.... Kicking myself for wasting a week ruining prints with seriously misaligned drive gears.....

Hindsight and all that....

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:34 pm

Don't hesitate to reach out @bellatrixzen!

If you're seeing weak splices (especially the first few splices), I'd suggest slightly increasing your Heating Factor for that material.

i.e., If printing with PLA, in Chroma, go to Settings > Material Profiles. Edit your Default PLA profile and change the Heating Factor from 2 to about 4. Then, like @Jetguy said, create a new MSF file with these settings and try running the file in Splice Demo > Without Printer mode so you can validate that the splices are looking as they should before running them in a print.

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:35 pm

Ok, so aside from being stupid busy and not having a lot of time, here is my quick and dirty.

I started out with receiving my bondtech upgrade 3 days before the Palette+ arrived. So, I spent the first week trying to print with a horribly misaligned extruder drive... Figured that out and started in with the Palette.

To @Brennanfoo- the heating correction fixed all cold joints. Thank you!

I started (stupidly, I guess) with the Mosaic Castle (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2167688).
On this print I did not have my Bowden tube value set right, nor did I time the loading correctly.
I did however, have JetGuy's corrected Gcode for R3d edited into the printer gcode files. I can confirm these work.
I extruded way too much of the first layer filament before I stopped loading. Soooo, I ran out of filament and the colors ended up transitioning wrong.
IMG_20170813_144913964.jpg


So, next print. They Mosaic Keychain (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1440655).
This one I remembered to change my bowden tube value, and the print did finish, but if you look at it, a color shift occurs in the middle.

IMG_20170812_102839377.jpg


This turned out decent.

Next was the Multicolor Sphinx (https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2202000)
Per Jetguy's advice I changed my transition length. I bumped to 135%.
The sphinx printed great for the given size. Some detail printed a bit messy because of size, speed, and layer height (.2)
IMG_20170813_145134879.jpg



So far, I'm very pleased with the Palette+ but I need to play more :)
Chroma, well, it needs a bit of work.
I think the hardware is pretty solid. It is amazing actually!
I havent played with MeshMixer to colorize single color models, but I am really looking forward to Canvas.

This is an excellent addition to a Raise3D printer if you have some spare cash around, and a bit of spare time to tweak settings and blow through some filament. And let me tell you- you will go through some filament!

BTW, I wanna say thanks to Jetguy again. You have saved me a massive amount of time I don't really have getting the Palette to play nice. If you're ever in Denver, give a shout. I owe ya a beer!

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:49 pm

Thanks for sharing, @bellatrixzen—I'm glad the heat setting change improved the splices & that you're pleased with your P+!

Would love to hear what you think could/should be improved about Chroma! We're constantly making it better (we will be sharing another Chroma update this week—lots of bugfixing in this update) & would love to incorporate your feedback (brennan@mosaicmanufacturing.com).

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:49 pm

Finally getting my act together and running a PLA +TPU print.
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2433894
Not quite halfway done (splice 33 out of 80) and will update tonight as soon as finished.
Attachments
DSC04844.JPG
DSC04843.JPG

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:25 pm

While printing this, I noticed a problem that was increased during this print and have raised the issue to the Mosaic team. The issue is that for a PING where the printer and gcode has a G4 dwell so that the encoder and thus palette can determine where the printer is at in the gcode- on a system with either a Bowden feed or a longer distance between the feeder and nozzle tip as in the Raise 3D N series causes some ooze during this G4 dwell. This is because again, there is no retraction before the G4 dwell, and so the slightly longer distance of roughly 100+mm between where the feeder and gear drive sits well above the central crossing block and the nozzle tip is well below the central cross block. The point being, this is not unique to Raise 3D only. There are a few other brands with similar setups (Zortrax M200, Wanhao D6 come to mind) but there are surely more. Further anything with a Bowden is even worse as the longer tube distance has stretch along with slight spring compression of the filament.

What is happening is, the ping happens in the same physical spot in the purge block and the resulting blob of ooze builds over time and layer by layer. This was enough to cause a skipped step on the last layers of my print- a frustrating failure for sure.

I've sent this off to Mosaic and tenatively have a proposed workaround. Basically, we need more than 1mm retract.
A quick look at a sample from the print file
G1 X47.606 Y74.4727 E30.52966 F1800 Last line of purge tower before ping
G1 E29.52966 F1800 Retract 1mm (E30.5296-29.5295 is a reversal of -1mm)
; ping pause 1
G4 P4000
G1
G4 P4000
G1
G4 P4000
G1
G4 P1000
G1 E30.52966 F1800 Return of filament after G4 dwell to reverse the 1mm previous retract.

What we potentially need is a little more retract to prevent ooze, but only for this G4 section.
Attachments
DSC04845.JPG

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:38 pm

As a workaround for this, Mosaic has suggested enabling this option called "Movement Pauses". Rather than the nozzle just sitting there and oozing in the exact same place as well as transferring heat to the surrounding area, this moves without extruding for the same time period.
Basically the same as before, but instead of sitting still, it would create travel move gcode that again does not extrude, but also does not sit in one spot.
Chroma Movement Pause.jpg


At the same time, I am trying a hand edit of the gcode to increase this retract distance specific to the ping to be 4mm retract. This way, we can evaluate both methods and give you users best advice as to what works for the N series. I like the idea of the movement, but ooze is ooze and will be different for some systems and the hardware details of how we have a slightly remote feeder with 100mm of filament between it and the nozzle tip and only 1mm of retract is likely to result in some ooze. The question will be does this movement pause deposit that into the purge block in such a way that it doesn't matter? In fact, I really think the fix might be both. The option to increase retract length during this pin phase and using movement to ensure the nozzle is not heating and deforming the area around it it.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:38 am

So good news is, definitely ensure you choose the above "Movement Pauses" when setting up your profile.
Here is the difference:
With Movement Pause enabled you can see the movement controlled the ooze drip into a nice pair of lines that extend off the purge block and are unlikely to cause a layer shift from a skipped step.
DSC04850.JPG


And the resulting skip free print
DSC04856.JPG


Alternatively, this is with it disabled resulting in the G4 Dwell in the same spot that creates a larger blob and eventually can ruin your print job.
DSC04851.JPG
DSC04852.JPG
DSC04853.JPG

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:34 pm

Excellent information. I'm going to rebuild my hotend today, and try to get the Raise going again.
The qidi however, is turning out amazing prints.. Just about finished with a couple of the clownfish, and printed a Bender (futurama) the other day.

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:47 pm

@Bellatrixzen Were those multi-color prints with Palette+? Would love to see pics!

@Jetguy FYI, we took your advice! We'll be shipping a Chroma update (and firmware update) today. The Chroma update includes a new setting to add an additional retraction before the pauses. Thank you again for the suggestion!

--

Edit: We just released the update! If you launch Chroma, you should see prompts to update firmware & software. (Or you can go to Help > Check for Updates.) The specific change I'm referring to from the update notes is:

- added a ping retraction distance setting for the pauses that occur during pings
--> set to "Auto" by default (retractions detected in the print will be used)
--> setting this manually allows you to retract filament further and help prevent your nozzle from oozing during ping pauses

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:37 pm

@brennanfoo here they are- Bender and the fish

And thanks for pushing out the update. Jetguy is right. The blobs are a bit of a pain. Will be updating immediately!
Are Jetguys Raise3D gcode fixes incorporated to this build??

IMG_20170816_114039169_HDR.jpg



IMG_20170815_073637778.jpg


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