Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

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Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:53 pm

Again, the only reason you haven't seen me is I literally just got one of these first "beta" Palette + and have been working back and forth with Mosaic on fine tuning TPU performance.
To date I have tested both TPU and PVA as support material and it's amazing. But just like everything else, I don't stop improving until there is a hard limit on what can be improved, so even before you get your Palette+ know that feedback is incorporated before your unit ever ships.
Again, the very top of my current list is to get the specific instructions and best way to use the palette + with the N2 series.

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:13 pm

Just took delivery of mine.
Think I will wait to set it up until you post the new profiles.
Need that time anyway to figure out how the heck to orient things so the workflow isn't just ridiculous....

Pierre
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:19 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Pierre » Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:00 pm

ok, I'm happy with your answer Jetguy. I can't wait trying the polysmooth/polymax mix for easy removable supports. And if it works with pva/polycast, we will have huge possibilities for producing metal parts...

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:34 am

Let me just explain some specifics about the N2 and N2 Plus regarding the Palette and Palette +.
Because these are such large printers and large build areas, the "as supplied" guide tube length with the Mosaic encoder cannot reach all areas of the bed- again as supplied stock. You absolutely can use longer tubes and when you make the initial calibration, that process calibrates the length. Again, this is just what is supplied in the box as of this exact second in time. The next is that the filament bay area and standard guide tubes location of the N2 and N2 Plus, the bay is not wide or deep enough for the shoebox sized palette or palette+. Again, the distance between the invisible plane of motion that the bed travels in, to the side door that opens for the filament bay is not able to hold the Palette or Palette+.
There is space between the back of the bed and it's clearance and the rear panel that is normally fixed.

Again, absolutely, I know for a fact you can use the palette + with nearly any printer. The issue will be location, mounting, overall guide path, mounting of encoder, tube length, and just general neatness and appearance. The very first issue is guide tubes and encoder mounting. Beyond that, you have 4 spools, and the Palette itself.

With the N1, I was able to use the palette right out of the box because the guide tubes and mounting are perfect and generally sized for that machine.

Here is my no mod to the printer thought on N2 and N2 Plus.
#1 you must add or use to a tube top guide to the extruder feeders. This is just a normal part of Palette(+) usage with any 3D printer. The encoder must accurately control and measure the guide path and distance of filament. This printed guide is for the stock extruder feeder as your N series would be shipped from the factory https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2383511
Alternatively when using a Bondtech extruder, I simply mount the supplied one that comes with the Palette.
DSC04668.JPG


#2 Building an external stand and combo spool holder for the Palette(+) would solve the mounting of the Palette and the spools and general feeding. I made this one from 1/2 inch plastic pipe and fittings which was reasonably cheap and easy.
26053612333_3978f72816_o.jpg


#3 I'm still working on best usage ideas for encoder mounting. One thought is making a kind of similar pipe stand to mount the encoder with the stand just resting on the top deck of the N2 and N2 plus. If that idea pans out, I'll make a detailed BOM and instructions. Likely, I will use this clamp for encoder mounting https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2174785 or this version that is a cup and single screw mounting https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2165554

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:37 pm

I just upgraded my extruder to the Bondtech N2 Hybrid, and yep the Palette encoder guide tube isnt long enough. What I planned on doing is coupling the smaller tubing that came with the N2+ to the tubing leaving the encoder.
As far as mounting the encoder, I am going to be using a rolling work cart (the nice plastic, taller ones they sell at Lowes/Home Depot) so that I can use the palette with my other printer located on the other side of the room.
Spools, palette, and encoder with all be on top of that cart.

The smaller Raise3D tubing seems to fit fairly snug into the feed hole in the Bondtech, but I need to verify all is well there before I get too excited.
All I had time for last night was to run a splice demo on the palette and use that filament to print a simple maker coin.
I will say, I was AMAZED at how well the splices worked. I wound the produced filament onto a spool about 2 feet away from the palette and it didn't break or show signs of separation.
I even tried to break a splice and the filament instead broke after the splice.
It really is a very cool little machine.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:37 pm

If you come up with an optimal or ideal length of the tube for the encoder to the extruder on the N2/N2 Plus, please share that value, Mosaic is waiting for me to give them information and will make custom tubes on order. I'll share what I come up with soon.

brennanfoo
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby brennanfoo » Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:00 pm

Hiya, Brennan from Mosaic here. Glad your splices are looking good, @bellatrixzen! Would love to hear how you improve the workflow—we're always looking to share tips & tricks with others to make their experiences better.

@Jetguy, as usual—thank you for helping push us to make the experience better for owners of Raise3D printers.

@Pierre—we can't wait to hear what you think of your Palette+!

brennan@mosaicmanufacturing.com

Pierre
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:19 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Pierre » Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:56 am

Since bellatrixzen is speaking about bondtech, do you think that the mosaic palette will work better with a bondtech mod ?
I'm quite happy with the genuine raise3D extruder, and I never used a bondtech extruder, but I'm using my N2 machines for business, and I'm wondering if I can increase productivity with this upgrade. I could install it at the same time than the mosaic palette...

any advice very wellcome !

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:28 am

Yes, highly recommend the Bondtech upgrade. The logic here is that the double drive grip and the spring tension method are more reliable and more accurate filament movement. Since the entire system works on the basic rule that the gcode contains a distance of filament to be extruded for segments and the palette is going to cut the filament to that exact length (+ an additional adjustable margin consumed in the purge block) the more accurate and stable your drive feeder is, the better results and more you can tune down purge distance.

Let me put it this way, part of calibration sequence is you have this high precision encoder watching the actual filament used. You print a test cube as a print with a known distance of filament to consume. The way it works is that you load the system through the encoder and then before the print, you tell both sides to start (palette to zero the encoder count and ready to record the value and the printer to print the test file). What opened my eyes was how much a stock extruder varied between tests. Bondtech was insanely consistent. That told me that while I thought I was getting good prints, every print might have a tiny bit less total plastic than was commanded by the gcode. Where it slipped and where that loss was may not be visible, but again, at the end of the day, I walked away with a real measurement of the difference.

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:25 pm

Well, spent the weekend with the Palette+ !

Hasn't gone well.
Trying to keep it mobile so I can share it between the R3D N2+, and my Qidi Tech I.

Pic of the R3D with the cart, Palette+ and spool crate:

IMG_20170805_092541254.jpg


On calibrating the R3D, I am returned a Loading Offset of 26486 and a Print Value of 47888 to enter into Chroma (plus or minus). Fails every time.

I'm working with tech support on the Qidi issue. It calibrates fine, but I always get the First Piece Too Short error, no matter how many skirt lines/layers (used up to 30/3) and never get above 5.2cm first segment length.. Strange. They are saying a purge command hidden somewhere. Waiting on this one.
All in all it has been a long weekend, and I have a nice collection of calibration prints ;)

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Sun Aug 06, 2017 11:27 pm

Let me try to explain a little and help if I can.
#1 failure on the calibration. I have not used the new method. This is unfortunate because once you tune or setup a system you don't just go fire off the calibration sequence for fun. So, I calibrated using the original BETA firmware and old style sequence without a piece of clear spliced at the start. In the past, the failure likely was a combination of your print profile being wonky and/or user error during the sequence. Just some facts, the loading offset is literally the length of filament from the palette to the tip of your nozzle with all the guide tubes and everything in a known state. Again, the whole idea is the palette will make filament enough to fill the tubes at the start of a print and the first segment must be right at the nozzle tip ready to extrude so that the next couple of splices are also timed or really distance wise to perfectly match up. The second value is comparing the actual filament used VS what was commanded in the gcode file. That's why you print that file and ALSO load it into the calibration sequence in the software because again, your give it 2 numbers. The first being the loading offset- AKA the exact to mm distance of the path to your nozzle, and second, the value of filament consumed for a given test file. So if the software keeps kicking back your number- most likely saying your print value is waaaay off and thus deemed "impossible" then there is a fault in the gcode file, your profile creating that gcode, or your extruder is so far off that we might need to solve that for this all to work.

And, for the second printer problem and first segment, Yes, we know all the workarounds and this is also print profile errors. In other words, your setup in S3D or whatever slicer needs some help. If you post your FFF file, or even better a factory file, I can examine it and fix "the problem".

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:42 am

Here is my suggested test file, and also Raise3D Palette profiles. The test file will work with all 3 models, N1, N2, or N2 Plus.
You might even start by loading my N1 Chroma profile and then edit for an N2/N2 Plus and hint, N2, N2 plus is the same because Chroma doesn't care about height, only XY.
Here is a screenshot too. Notice I chose Bowden but a specific length to leave extra filament above the extruder at the end of the job.
Attachments
Chroma Raise3D settings1.jpg
Chroma Raise3D settings2.jpg
Chroma Profile Raise3D N1 Palette.zip
(573 Bytes) Downloaded 19 times
Raise3D S3D profiles Palette.zip
(8.51 KiB) Downloaded 19 times
Raise3D_20mmcube.zip
(11.64 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:43 am

Continued...
Attachments
Chroma Raise3D settings4.jpg
Chroma Raise3D settings3.jpg

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:06 pm

I'm hoping to get back to it tonight. Ran out of brain power yesterday.
I did get the calibration on the N2+ taken care of. Going to run a test ASAP.
My profile I made in Chroma is basically identical to your screenshots, including the length of Bowden tube.

I think the N2+ will be fine.
The Qidi First Piece error was caused by gcode that was priming and purging at the start of the print. And Derek said there were other issues with the qidi being a dual extruder machine that we are working on now.

Derek did say there were a few dual extruder issues they hope to have a fix for soon. While Chroma does seem pretty solid, it does still have a lot of that "beta feel" to it. Which, honestly, I don't mind too much.
I don't mind having to learn more that you normally would in a plug and play situation. Only serves you better in the long run.

bellatrixzen
Posts: 57
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:39 am
Location: Colorado, USA

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby bellatrixzen » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:02 pm

Jetguy-
Thanks for the S3D profiles! That saved me a lot of time! Currently giving a go on Mosaics castle model. This is my thind go, but only because I am still finding the sweet spot for the bondtech thumb screw.
Think screw pressure right now, but did have filament slip a bit and this print had colors get skewed. Lets see if it finishes..

Question, what is with the pauses in the transition tower? Toolhead change I assume?

Thanks again!

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:18 am

OK, the bad news. I may have just kicked over a bug in using the latest Chroma with Raise 3D N series.
The problem I saw was that using the produced gcode from Chroma post processing, the return to the print layer after the purge tower was showing a failure of extrusion to start for some distance. In my case, an entire print layer object was left off (Kenny's zipper and weak extrusion of his gloved hand). My theory was that some part of the gcode added by chroma for the purge tower was not playing nice with Raise 3D Marlin firmware. I found it. I've reported this to Mosaic. It's a flaw in that not all firmware accepts negative gcode values. Our Marlin only accepts positive values.

Here is a code snipped
G1 X109.756 Y153.2704 E34.50301 F9000 -- last line of the purge block
G1 E33.50301 F1800 - less than previous line so retraction of 1mm
; leaving transition tower
G1 X148.247 Y58.61 F9000 ; move back to print - travel move with no extrusion
G92 E-1 Tell the extruder we are at negative one- this could be the problem line because some firmware does not allow negative values- Raise 3D marlin is an example.
G1 E0 F1800 This would normally tell it to move from negative one to one, which is feeding forward the previous last line of the purge tower 1mm retraction- except if your firmware does not accept negative one- leaving you with a retracted filament.
G92 E0 Resets the logical position to 0- however, physical filament is actually still negative one.

End result is that the print fails to extrude for at least 1mm of consumed filament post the purge tower return.

I'm going to try a text edit find and replace and see if I can come up with a workaround until Chroma is changed (fixed) or Mosaic gives instructions or advice.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:25 am

Trying this, fingers crossed. I open the gcode in MS wordpad.
I do the following find and replace all.
Find "G92 E-1"
Replace with "G92 E0"

Then find "G1 E0 F1800"
Replace with "G1 E1 F1800"

This should only affect the created lines by Chroma purge tower and should correct the retraction not being recovered.
YMMV, Use at own risk, may damage, .......

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:40 am

Note, what you are really looking for to make that hand text edit is "; leaving transition tower"
Then make a note of the line G1 E0 FXXXX because that feed rate value might be different based on your settings.
So the procedure first is find "leaving transition tower"
Then note the gcode lines below that, and find replace as required.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:45 am

BTW, 100% this resolved the gcode issue and is now printing correctly. Hopefully Mosaic can incorporate the changes into a rapid update for Chroma.

Jetguy
Posts: 1790
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Single extruder multiple color using the Mosaic Palette

Postby Jetguy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:08 am

FWIW, here is Kenny printed in 4 color on the N1. Note, these files in theory work on an N2 or N2 Plus, just won't print centered, but that doesn't matter.
I just put them into dropbox since they are too big for here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/rdm8uy1u292q ... YKx2a?dl=0

This is the magic part.
To save you massive time of setting up a print or multiple prints, simply open this factory file in S3D. That gives you the 4 processes and the correctly assigned STls to the correct process. You can then change process setting and retain the key relationship.
Attachments
DSC04811.JPG
DSC04810.JPG


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