Berd-air print quality issue

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
Iamkar33m
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Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Iamkar33m » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:18 am

So I've installed my berd-air cooling system and somehow my prints are coming out weird. The file was sliced prior to berd-air and printed just fine with my previous cooling setup. Any suggestions on what could be going on? I put my hand under the rings and I can feel pretty good airflow coming out.

Also, on a separate note, is the berd-air max pump supposed to be fairly loud? I mean I get that it's essentially a tiny compressor, but I didn't think it would be this loud.

Best,
Kareem
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Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 12:02 pm

Please, a full series of pictures on your setup. Yes, the motor is loud when run at 100% however, 100% should not be required for cooling.
There are all kinds of mistakes a user could make if you don't know about airflow. Examples are, the kit provides long lengths of the tubing. If you use the full length of the yellow 1/16th tubing, then you are restricting the airflow volume and increasing the pressure drop. You could kink the tubing of the metal nozzle end and restrict airflow. I'm not saying that's the fault, but without pictures all i can point out is where one "could" go wrong. Are you using the E3D style hotends with silicone sock insulators? What thermocouples are used (E3D) or did you reuse the longer Raise3D factory ones?
Then you say this:
I put my hand under the rings and I can feel pretty good airflow coming out.


Does that mean this is a dual extruder and you used 2 rings and a Y splitter? In that case, yes, now tubing size, length of tubing, type of tubing all come into play as you might be sharing one pump and 2 cooling rings.

There is a silencer case for the pump https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2927537
There are isolating mounts for the pump https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2849793
Here is one with a second fan to ensure the motor stays cool https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2875099

Iamkar33m
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Iamkar33m » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:21 pm

Here are more pictures of my setup. I do plan to shorten the yellow tubing, but I don’t have enough clear one to do so yet. Also I did run the setup with the silicone E3D socks on, but found the rings hung too low and dragged on the print. The only way I got good nozzle clearance was to leave the socks off.

Also, running the pump at 25% is quieter, but more “shrill”? Sorry I’m hard of hearing, so my ears may not be as accurate in describing sounds.
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Iamkar33m
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Iamkar33m » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:51 pm

Just ran another print. It looks great except this one side. The same profile on the opposite side looks fantastic.
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Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:07 pm

Well that's the problem.
#1 you are proving one air pump per nozzle is required and you cannot just Y split
#2 You are also proving that no, you need a silicone sock, you are literally heating the very air you are trying to cool with. It can and does work with a silicone sock, I don't understand why you couldn't mate the parts. There is plenty of clearance.

Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:24 pm

Well that's the problem.
#1 you are proving one air pump per nozzle is required and you cannot just Y split
#2 You are also proving that no, you need a silicone sock, you are literally heating the very air you are trying to cool with. It can and does work with a silicone sock, I don't understand why you couldn't mate the parts. There is plenty of clearance.

Step 1 is remove the Y splitter and only cool the active nozzle side being use (one air pump to one cooling ring).
But again, hundreds of people are using the E3D block, sock, and the Berd cooler system without clearance issues. You just needs to bend the tube carefully and ensure the ring is flat against the bottom of the block and sock. A little more time spent in getting this right will change your results.
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Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:25 pm

Sorry, I have no idea why an edited post looks like 2 posts?

Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:29 pm

Again, looking at your picture, is clear to me the left side aluminum tube is definitely in contact with the heater block. The right hand side is bend at a non flat angle and has limited contact, but still contact. the Y splitter is no guarantee the cooling rings get the same air flow as bends, and other tiny hole details determine pressure. Again, I see obvious differences in heater block contact for one, and second one side good and one side bad further enforces the fact that your setup just isn't correct and equal on both sides. You are also the first person I am aware of trying to cool 2 nozzles with one pump and Y splitter.

Vice Chief
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Vice Chief » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:57 pm

Expanding a little on what JetGuy said, I've seen similar artifacts in a different setup.

To me, it looks like the two "sides" of the print aren't getting the same cooling. In your setup, this seems to be caused by the Y-splitter. The Berd on the active nozzle is producing warmer air because it's in contact with a hot part. The other Berd is sending out cooler air.

When the nozzle works over the middle of the print, both Berds pass over the part and cool it. But at the extreme wall, only the warmer one is passing over the printed part.

Things might work just fine if you disconnect the unused side of the Y so that all the air is coming out of one nozzle. I agree that a sock or other thermal barrier should help as well. The aluminum tube of the Berd is, unfortunately, a great conductor of heat.

I'm very interested in this technology so I'm excited to see you get it up and running! These kinds of nozzles are routinely used in laser surgery and some dentistry.

Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:35 pm

So here is my install mid process for a single extruder variant. It sadly required a minor mod to the Bondtech, but the result and fit and finish is worth it IMO.
So I used a large nylon spacer from the local hardware store, and a small spring to pull up on the tube and allow nozzle changes and other hotend repair easily. You just pull down on the tube and swing the air tube ring out of the way. Also notice the extremely gentle bend radius and I used a wire inside the tubing during bending to prevent kinking. Go slow and steady.
N series Single extruder using spacer.JPG


Then the yellow tube exits the top side of the central crossing block.
IMG_0623.JPG


I then made a notch in the bottom of the Bondtech single extruder version to allow the tube to exit out the rear without pinching.
IMG_0621.JPG

IMG_0626.JPG


Last, you can see the very short routing of the yellow tube before it connects to the larger clear tube.
IMG_0630.JPG

Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:38 pm

Now you can see how it's installed from the front.
IMG_0634.JPG


Then from the side
IMG_0631.JPG


And last showing the complete and very lightweight single extruder setup.
IMG_0636.JPG


I'm still mod process of trying to figure out mounting of the airpump but likely to use the box method and TPU 3D printed mounting to isolate the vibration.

Iamkar33m
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Iamkar33m » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:14 pm

Alright, here's my gameplan:

1) Throw out the Y-splitter and cool just the primary nozzle for now, as I hardly use dual-extrusion.
2) Put the sock back on.
3) Shorten the yellow tube as much as possible.

2 questions though:

1) Does the Berd-Air pump need active cooling (a fan blowing at the motor)?
2) Can the HE2 connector run two Berd-Air pumps (if I get a second for the secondary extruder)?

Best,
Kareem

Iamkar33m
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Iamkar33m » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:52 pm

So I did what I said I’d do and ended up with worse quality print. It’s as if the aluminum ring is conducting heat and passing it into the print.
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Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:20 pm

Iamkar33m wrote:1) Does the Berd-Air pump need active cooling (a fan blowing at the motor)?
2) Can the HE2 connector run two Berd-Air pumps (if I get a second for the secondary extruder)?


I would recommend either active or passive cooling.
Active- add a fan in parallel to the motor to blow at the motor and pump in operation
or
passive, use 2 heatsinks like this to fully surround the motor https://www.amazon.com/ShareGoo-Aluminu ... B078XD5LJ8

The FET and general circuit could run two 24V pumps, but the connector itself might be the weak point.
I think max current for the 24V pump is 1.5A, and that style of connector for HE2 on the mainboard probably caps out at 3A provided good tight mating connector pins and good clean optimal connection with good sized wire to conduct any heat at the connector away.

I really am sorry and puzzled why you are having problems here. Now that you have only one ring and the block insulated, that should have worked. I'm running this same basic setup (e3D heaterblock and nozzle, silicone sock insulator, and the Berd cooling system on no less than 3 other printers and the results are fantastic.

Berd cooler on a PrintrBot printrbelt
Berd cooler on a medium core XY
Berd cooler on the big core xy
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Vice Chief
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Vice Chief » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:39 am

Out of curiosity, can you feel the air coming out of the Berd? Is it hot?

Iamkar33m
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Iamkar33m » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:23 am

Vice Chief wrote:Out of curiosity, can you feel the air coming out of the Berd? Is it hot?


I did that earlier, the air coming out of the ring is pretty damn hot (I can't keep my hand under the nozzle for more than 2-3 seconds). I'm not sure how it's heating up with the silicone sock on though. I'm all out of ideas. :(

detroitus
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby detroitus » Fri Jul 06, 2018 1:49 pm

I don't know much about the Berd system, but is it possible that the pump itself is overheating and producing hot air to begin with? If so, that could be why your quality got worse when you decrease the length of your tubing.

Vice Chief
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Vice Chief » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:08 pm

Yeah, I suppose the next thing to do would be to hang the Berd nozzle off the size of the actual nozzle, so they're not actually touching. Then run it for a bit. If the air comes out hot, the pump is the culprit.

Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:09 pm

detroitus wrote:I don't know much about the Berd system, but is it possible that the pump itself is overheating and producing hot air to begin with? If so, that could be why your quality got worse when you decrease the length of your tubing.


No, it doesn't work like that. Yes, you could overheat the motor, yes you could overheat the one bushing point in the system with lack of lubrication- no, none of those conditions cause the above fault unless the system stopped pumping.

Jetguy
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Re: Berd-air print quality issue

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:29 pm

Again, this is a bone simple pistonless compressor system. Nothing more than a wobble plate and multi molded rubber compressing diaphrams. It has one basic moving part (the wobble plate). Like any compressor, yes, compression does warm the air- warm being the operative word- not hot. Certainly not hot enough ever to feel even remotely warm across the pressure drop at the nozzle. This is basic adiabatic process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiabatic_process. Again, the key is, yes, the pump body, the tubing immediately exiting the compressor will be warm but far from hot. At the same time, the pressure difference between pressure inside the tubing and ring duct VS ambient open air will cause a natural drop in temp of exiting air. This is why if you breath in air, in your lungs, you are 98F right? Yet if you blow that same air through a straw, it was 98F and yet blowing fast trough a straw at your own hand, there is a pressure drop and velocity change and the air feels cool. Again, simple test, breath on your hand with an open mouth. This done slowly, you feel the warm air from your lungs. Now close your lips and blow fast pressure at your hand, the same air we know heated by your body now feels cool against your hand.

The Berd cooler system works the same way. There is a pressure increase from ambient air to pressurized air in the compressor and the tubing. The compressor itself and the tubing will become warm, but this is not a high powered compressor so the air rises in temp for sure, but not so much at to feel hot. It's a minor temp rise. That same temp rise reverses itself to cooling as the airflow experiences a pressure drop from inside the tubing of the ring cooler to blowing at a fast rate (and thus pressure drop) to ambient air pressure.

The reason to add a fan or heatsinks to the motor is simply to prevent additional heat from the motor shaft heating the one bushing in the system. As seen in this topic, here is a pump failure most likely from lack of lube on the wobble plate pin or shaft into the plastic molded eccentric bushing on the end of the motor shaft. As you can see in the photo, the shaft got hot and that's not the motor shaft, that's the wobble plate shaft. The only way for that shaft to get hot is friction as the motor rotates and the wobble plate stays still turning rotary motion into a cyclic wobble that compresses the cylinder of each chamber.viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4841&start=140#p32845
Again, this failure was causes by a manufacturing defect of lack of lube on assembly.
IMG_20180619_093034.jpg


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