New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

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JohnSays
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New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby JohnSays » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:34 pm

Wrapping a hot end to insulate it is time consuming and a bit trying. I came up with a way that is quite easy. It requires cutting some insulating tubing, using a cork hole cutter to cut a hole for the filament into the top and out the bottom, and then the small holes for the hex head set screws. It does not require kapton tape.

Below is how I used to do it:
IMG_5004.JPG


This is how I now do it. It takes about 5 minutes tops to make the insulation. The tube is a very good insulator and isolates the cold end from the hot end very cleanly. Even though the ends of the hot block are open, the area that really needs to be insulated is. That insulation keeps the fan from blowing on the hot block it and keeps the majority of the heat from radiating up to the cold end.

P1020275.jpg

P1020261.jpg

P1020260.jpg

Missing the hex set screw holes... oops. The black ring you see around the nozzle is a smaller insulation tube to keep cold air off the threads of the E3D v6. (I bought these before R3D made 0.2 - 0.8 nozzles available.)
P1020277.jpg
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

Jetguy
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby Jetguy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:12 am

That is a nice solution, and the ratings and materials look very good. My only concern is that is an open weave fiberglass single layer. I imagine that if you get any plastic on it, it's going to melt into the weave and be hard/impossible to clean. I tried finding that exact brand on Amazon and was unable to find 3/4 inch size in Prime free shipping.

That said, many, many companies in the DIY Reprap 3D printer scene had used an expanding fiberglass with a silicone coating. I had quite a few short sections from MakerGear from their hotends. The nice thing about the smooth slick silicone sleeve is that stray plastic will not stick permanently. It just comes right off. But this is not without tradeoffs. The silicone has a lower constant temp rating of 450-500F which is 232C-260C and maximum of 2200F. http://www.thermotec.com/products/18000 ... eeves.html
IMO, as long as you print typical PLA and ABS, and maybe PETG and stay below 260C, I like this solution with the silicone better, but if doing PC and other extreme high temp plastics, you have to use something else more like what you chose.

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby Jetguy » Sat Sep 17, 2016 9:26 am

Also, just for reference, the Mosaic Palette is using a similar fiberglass sleeve like you linked on the hot splicing tool.
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby Michael » Sat Sep 17, 2016 11:34 am

That a pretty good solution John. I'd be interested in the analysis with and with out.

Wonder how that would compare, if we make a block silicone sleeve/sock for the block...
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JohnSays
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby JohnSays » Sat Sep 17, 2016 5:49 pm

Thanks for the look JetGuy. I got mine on WireCare.com. I looked at the silicone coated specs on the manufacture's site at https://www.techflex.com/default.asp, but did not find the suitable size and temperature range. I measured the perimeter of the heat block and then looked for an ID to match it. This particular fiberglass tube is fray-resistant and does not stretch. I like the idea of the silicone over fiberglass better for the reasons you indicate.

I'm working on a better cooling solution for the cold end and a separate solution for the filament that can still be controlled per nozzle. I do not get why the cold end and filament cooling are on the same fans. That is a design flaw. The cold end needs constant flow, but the filament may or may not need cooling for different applications. Also, I am getting tired of forgetting that when I switch to ABS I have to attach the fan blockers. I usually remember after the print is started... The pin-outs necessary are on the break-out board.
- John
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walshlg
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby walshlg » Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:15 pm

I heard there is a kickstarter for silicone sleeves to the e6 hotends

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dhylands
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby dhylands » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:29 pm


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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby JohnSays » Tue Sep 20, 2016 1:47 am

Well yeah, but overkill I think. A simple sleeve works, costs almost nothing and is very easy to install. Anyway, the sleeve meets almost all my requirements. See JetGuy's post for any short-comings. I guess you can have a Kickstarter for anything if you can do it for silicone hot end socks...<g>
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby camfather » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:08 am

Why do we feel the need to insulate the hot end?

I am switching to E3D hotends because they work well ( I have them on my other 3 delta style printers) and they now have a "sock" to keep filament build up off the the "hot" block where the nozzle attaches. The sock is to keep things clean, not to keep the heat in.

I am hoping that on the extruder board that the extra 2 sets of pin outs next to where the cold end fans plug in are programmable via pwn. But from what I am reading so far they are not connected to the motion control board. I hope this is false, as having constant fan ON to the cold end and programmable cooling to "nozzle fans" would be ideal.

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby JohnSays » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:38 am

The insulation is for a few things: (1) Heat creep with PLA. If PLA flows in the cold end you have a clog right now, (2) Maintaining a high temperature at or above 260C. Insulation allows the hot end to come up to temperature more quickly and is maintained more evenly because the controller is not bounced around by rapid cooling events. At high temps, a short lag while the controller calculates and responds could be a 20C drop in temp. Not really a problem at lower temperatures., and (3) better isolation of the cool-end vs. hot-end. Think about it, the two parts are best kept away from one another in terms of thermal characteristics, but in reality they have to be one on top of the other for practical reasons. Heat radiates from the hot end up to the cold end. Just how much heat is going to migrate into the cold-end during a very long print? Small prints do not stress the system enough to show these weaknesses. Do a 78 hour print and see how hot your "cold-end" gets, how dry your bearings get, how much material accumulates on the nozzle, and etc. and etc.

As far as switching hot-ends, I'd like to point out to you that Raise3D has got the industry somewhat beat in this area with their titanium isolation tube. You have a full metal end and can push flexible filaments like Ninjaflex through or print PC at 280C -- even hotter when set up correctly (ehem - insulation). You just are not going to do better with E3D. The R3D hot-end will accommodate 0.2mm (smaller too I think but have not tried YET, and 0.8mm -- and perhaps over 1mm nozzle according to some). The hot-end is not the weak point of design. The extruder was for me and the lack of adjustable table was too -- both now fixed. I'd also add controlled cooling to the list and dual nozzle height control. But, again, I've worked those problems out.

The breakout board has two gcode controllable outputs:

raise3d NuEi headbreakout.jpg
raise3d NuEi headbreakout.jpg (30.85 KiB) Viewed 3176 times
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

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walshlg
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby walshlg » Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:03 pm

Main time you pretty much have to use insulation is when printing a thin wall that is slanted (in PLA). Even with a cooling fan, the heat radiating down from the hot block is enough to make that edge curl Upward, its especially bad if you are using dual extrusion. THat gets worse, the longer you print and will cause head strike and has ruined many a print.

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby JohnSays » Mon Oct 31, 2016 5:09 pm

I have been insulating my hot end as shown above and have found one more -- shall I say unintended -- use for it. I had a leak with PET-G seeping out of the hot end because I had not sufficiently tightened my assembly. The insulation caught all the dripping PET-G and the print finished and looked great. The hot end was a complete mess though and required a burnout and cleanup.
- John
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby walshlg » Tue Nov 01, 2016 4:46 pm

I have been playing around with high temperature silicone caps used to cover nozzles, etc during powder coating. Unfortunately, they do not provide nearly the amount of insulation as the paper type insulation does BUT it holds the paper insulation pretty well.

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby checktest » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:25 pm

Nice idea John! I ended up going with this stuff, very similar: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051OL6Y4/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I just cut it to length and slit it down one side. Since it's impregnated, it's stiff and I just folded it up into place, without having to remove / disassemble the hotend. I suppose next time I have it apart, I'll put on the more permanent style that you did (not slit). Also, I kept the hole for the nozzle small so only the very tip of it pokes out. It acts somewhat like a silicone sock, and helps keep the nozzle and my prints clean. It has been helping quite a bit with reducing buildup of nozzle blobs on PETG.

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby firesped » Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:13 pm

to me, insulating the hotend on the bottom keeps the heat from effecting what I am printing. It also allows for the hot end to heat much faster. Since heat is radiating onto my print from the hotend, I don't need to run the bed heater as high to keep the print on the buildtek.
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby JohnSays » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:19 pm

Hi checktest. You got basically the same product as I did but mine has more resistance to fraying. My product has the same temp characteristics as yours but has the words "TruFit" added to the name. From the manufacturers web site:

"Insultherm Tru-Fit is a braided fiberglass sleeving which has been heat treated and impregnated with an acrylic binder to reduce fraying and dusting, and improve usability and performance. FGL is engineered for applications where temperatures as high as 1,200°F may be encountered" (emphasis mine).

I jumped on that because my first attempts with a woven fiberglass showed that it would unravel too easily for me.

Btw, I also bought a length of insulation (Mfg#: FGLG.04BK) that can cover just the nozzle itself. I'm looking at how to best secure it to the red insulation. Fiberglass thread??

I see that I have not mentioned where I found this insulation. It is available on http://www.wirecare.com.

https://www.wirecare.com/category/braided-sleeving/extreme-temperature/insultherm-tru-fit/fgl0.75rd-insultherm-tru-fit-fiberglass-sleeving-3-4-red-5-ft-cuts
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walshlg
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby walshlg » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:23 pm

FWIW- I am also playing with insulating my nozzles trying to improve performance of dual printing with PTU.

Results so far-> Kapton glue doesnt hold well at temp on the metal +BUT holds if taped to itself.

I'm having some luck using snips of "high temperature" silicone plug covers that are used to cover connections etc when doing metal powder coating.

https://www.amazon.com/Silicone-Rubber- ... er+coating

THey cut easily with scissors and if you can get it over the upper shoulder of the nozzle works to hold on the ceramic tape. By itself, they do not insulate very well IMHO

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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby Noren » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:35 pm

Would this product work? It’s rated -40 to +200°C and melting point 600°C. Fibreglass with aluminium.
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby Michael.P@Raise3D » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:22 pm

That is a rather large gap from 200c to melting at 600c, is there any other information on the product?
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Re: New idea for insulating a hot end rapidly

Postby Noren » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:26 pm

Nope. Will ask the seller. Ideally. What heat tolerance is required?


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