Migrate to different board and firmware

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
FreedomRules
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:34 pm

Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby FreedomRules » Sat May 26, 2018 5:59 am

Personally for the price I paid for the printer I'm not overly satisfied with its feature set. I feel with almost ever print I have to tweak the clearance between the hot end and glass. For me printing 2 colors is just about impossible as it seems it always nocks the piece off. I partially link that to the washboard levelness of the bed. I'm sure i could do tons of things to prep for each print to make it work but then again for the price paid I don't think I should have to. I think I need to replace my ribbon cable, stepper drivers install BL touch, thermal protection "and why that wasn't implement at the factory is beyond me and likely a lawsuit waiting to happen when someone burns there house down", filament runout sensors and update bed with thick aluminum plate.

With that in mind does anyone have any recommendations on a new controller board and firmware. I was thinking like smoothieware or MK4Duo. I don't like the path of the new pro being proprietary on the firmware so whats to keep them from on one of the next versions for the non pro units switching over to that.

I'm having a hard time getting Marlin 1.8 and 2.0 working on the current hardware as I'm guessing its how they've implemented the whole solution. I can get parts but not everything fully working. So going with an aftermarket board I'd be more able to keep up with current releases on firmware vs the older 1.6 they have for us currently if I stick with Marlin. I'm waiting for the next great firmware. I've tried to find were someone did the same printer and just swapped out boards and firmware and printed like 20 different objects with complex shapes to compare quality.

Mainly want to copy files over network to device and either issue a cli command or have something like mattercontrol or octoprint or some other smart touchscreen controller.

trae@greenlee.cc
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:48 am

FreedomRules wrote:I'm having a hard time getting Marlin 1.8 and 2.0 working on the current hardware.


https://github.com/Raise3D/Marlin-Raise3D-N-Series <- raise3d implementation of marlin. old code hasn't been updated in a year
https://github.com/ABH10/Marlin-for-Raise3D-N-series/tree/1.1.x_Raise3D <- modified firmware with 1.1.8 codebase, also has some branches for bltouch.

I'm running ABH10 bltouch version at the moment and have a berd air pump wired to he2 and pin mapped to function with S106, also the hotend fan is now connected to fan 0 and set to shut on/off automatically based on nozzle temp.
imo the motion board works good and can be customized but the touch screen was not worth having and since I gave up on the official slicer the built in gcode streamer/touch screen was not very useful. Ended up pulling it and running the printer on repetier server on raspberrypi

As for the dual extrusion issues, i know its a lot of money but Mosaic Pallet may make dual, tertiary (not sure this is the correct term) , or quad extrusion less painfull.
just my 2 cents.

FreedomRules
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:34 pm

Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby FreedomRules » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:09 am

trae@greenlee.cc wrote:
FreedomRules wrote:I'm having a hard time getting Marlin 1.8 and 2.0 working on the current hardware.


https://github.com/Raise3D/Marlin-Raise3D-N-Series <- raise3d implementation of marlin. old code hasn't been updated in a year
https://github.com/ABH10/Marlin-for-Raise3D-N-series/tree/1.1.x_Raise3D <- modified firmware with 1.1.8 codebase, also has some branches for bltouch.

I'm running ABH10 bltouch version at the moment and have a berd air pump wired to he2 and pin mapped to function with S106, also the hotend fan is now connected to fan 0 and set to shut on/off automatically based on nozzle temp.
imo the motion board works good and can be customized but the touch screen was not worth having and since I gave up on the official slicer the built in gcode streamer/touch screen was not very useful. Ended up pulling it and running the printer on repetier server on raspberrypi

As for the dual extrusion issues, i know its a lot of money but Mosaic Pallet may make dual, tertiary (not sure this is the correct term) , or quad extrusion less painfull.
just my 2 cents.



The ABH/1.1.x_Raise3D is the one I started with. My first issue was I can never get it to either manual or autoPID tune. So far I've just been running the autotune to get the values then recompile the code to apply it. Although thats only applying to left but then again I think I read somewhere from Vicki the they don't support calibrating both heads anyway. Have you been able to AutoPID tune or Manual tune the heads? My only issue with the Mosaic is that I think it would limit me on using different types of material. I'd assume they'd have to be pretty close in temp range. I also had read the linear_advance 1.5 had major improvements but ABH said he had given it a try awhile back and wasn't overly impressed but qualified it was in it infancy so that could have contributed.

I don't mind spending the money on the Mosaic my true issue is just the usability of the unit. I really need to get some form of auto bed leveling going that does it on each print. I find from print to print if your temp varies even 1 degree the bed height needs adjusted. At least on mine it does. I tried performing a bed leveling procedure but could never get the center to comply. Everywhere else would come into level but not the center. Guess I just need to drop some more money and do some more mods to make it useable. I think if I did the bed mode like someone on here did that has a super ass thick aluminum plate with an enhanced heater that would help with a level bed.

I'm honestly thinking I'd be better off just scraping all of Raise3D controls and just go all aftermarket. Issue is deciding a path and not requiring 2 months worth or research to find the most advanced functioning patch. Like I said before alot of my concern is like almost 95% of companies once they launch a new product they no longer develop on the older platform so that is making my decision to jump ship on controls alot easier. I wish DGLASS3D hadn't stopped production of there 1.75mm auto lift head. I seriously doubt Raise3D will sell theres and if they do I'd assume it would be at a price point to prohibit people from buying them.

I had actually thought about using a miniature scroll compressor for cooling parts and print heads. That or have some water-cooled adapters built as I'd image I could get them built for under $200 for a pair and get ride of the whole fan's and cooling ducts. I've got several friends who are machinist and have said they can make things for me if I just give them the files. They've already made some custom AR15 parts I've designed for myself.

Jetguy
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:26 pm

The most advanced path is simply the Duet route. Either DUET Wifi or Duet ethernet.
Printing from Octoprint or anything external over USB to to any printer controller exposes the segmentation limit of the USB interface.

DUET runs the DC42 (David Crocker) branch of the Reprap firmware on the current fastest 32 bit platform.
At the same time, it also has the biggest and baddest stepper drivers from trinamic on it- 2.4A rating and TMC2660
It prints directly from the high speed hardware bus enabled SD card and the network interface allows transfer and writing (upload) to that card.
It supports the paneldue LCD touch interface and a 7 inch screen size that could be retrofitted into the existing control box location.

All the details here https://duet3d.dozuki.com/Wiki/Hardware_Overview
And my favorite supplier in the US for these is https://www.filastruder.com/collections/electronics
Tim is also carrying the Bondtech upgrades https://www.filastruder.com/collections/bondtech and other parts- and you have to realize, for me he's one state away so I get 2 day and some good days in the middle of the week, near next day shipping.

You might ask why have I not personally installed this?
#1 I actually like and still prefer the Raise 3D touch UI interface. Uploading over Wifi has never been an issue for me with this. I really do like the UI for day to day use.
#2 for most printing I'm not hitting the limitations of the system. Yes, when I do- I'm smart enough to know that printing from directly attached SD card to the mainboard is the highest performance option of any system regardless of processor, and I have the parts (Reprap discount Full Graphic LCD module). I've considered making a 3D printed housing for the cover of the electronics bay just to keep one plugged in all the time.

Again, the facts are, this is not anything but a simple Cartesian printer. The controller math is just not that high. Yes, in theory, moving to an alternate controller removes all limitations, and again, this is a hands down fact- nothing else today touches a Duet Wifi. In 6 months that might change, but today, that is the performance bar.
I literally have a brand spanking new Duet Wifi sitting beside me while typing this. At $169+ a thermocouple module $29 and then I would still need to get a paneldue (I used my last 7 inch version on another project printer), so realistically, looking at $300

I have to be honest again, i feel that I still like daily the Raise 3D UI over paneldue and the web control, but understand how some of you on the serious tinkering side- you might love the macros and all the other stuff you can do. Performance in a cartesian printer is just not going to be the issue here, but again, 32 bit and seriously good firmware (BTW, I know that Dan Newman of the Sailfish firmware fame contributed) running on 120MHz ARM Cortex-M4 .

One example would be, with a DUET Wifi or Ethernet, you could install 0.9 degree motors, double the steps per mm "resolution" and it's true resolution because the motor steps are doubled- all because you now have the processor and firmware able to send those kind of step rates.
https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.c ... h248-20-4a
Again, the only good way to really run that much of a step increase is running a real 32 bit board, the 8 bit will begin to choke and quadstep.

Really good article from another person who I consider an expert and really made changes in the 3D printing industry at the time.
This explains how 8 bit firmware like Marlin handles the stepper interrupts, and why that produces noise and jitter, and why there are limits to step rate on 8 bit AVR. https://softsolder.com/2013/06/04/marli ... pt-timing/
https://softsolder.com/2013/06/04/marli ... pt-timing/

Jetguy
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:38 pm

Again, for me, adding a $14 LCD panel and sneaknet an SD card with the code where there is the rare occasion I am printing something artistic or needs the fine segmentaton and thus would hit a limit.

That's a pretty cheap upgrade in the big picture.
I say that, because again, the alternative- Duet Wifi- no doubt is an upgrade, but I know to do it the way I want done, is $300+, and I lose the touchscreen I actually like and change it for a much less appealing IMO and use scenario but more user configurable LCD.
I'm also losing ports- no longer to manually transfer over a large print file on a USB stick. The best interface is using the web, and that requires doing it from a browser on a tablet or PC or other device (smartphone).

Again, for me, it's one thing if the Raise3D interface was just unusable, or just didn't meet my needs, but exactly opposite, I have these 2 systems side by side. I even went as far as how to figure out how to copy the Raise3D image and make it run on a pcduino acadia board (no longer in manufacture and pretty pricey) and also the matching 7 inch LCD just to be able to run the Raise 3D interface on other basic simple Cartesian printers because I feel it is that much more usable than octoprint - and yet, right here, we have the opposite opinion of wanting to ditch the raise3d setup and go with something else.

Again, for me, adding a $14 control panel solves 99.999% of any issue I had.

Also, it seems to me you are all stuck on auto leveling to solve a HARDWARE problem.
If anything, your entire approach here is rip out the electronics, DIY the crap out of this- when what you seem to want is build your own printer, and chase problems that should be dealt with in other ways.

trae@greenlee.cc
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:16 pm

Also, it seems to me you are all stuck on auto leveling to solve a HARDWARE problem.

I was wondering if this tired argument was going to come up, and i'm sorry for continuing to derail the thread.
Autoleveling is not primarily trying to fix a hardware problem in software, it is automating the tool head's Z offset and hopefully doing it more accurately/repeatable then one could do with a feeler gauge. It would be similar to adding a touch sensor or a Haimer to a mill to set tool offsets quicker/better, the goal is better accuracy.
Geometry correction or mesh leveling is addressing hardware inaccuracies and is a byproduct only because it become very easy to do once you have a leveling sensor. You can do mesh leveling without automation tool height sensor, you can set Z height automatically without mesh leveling.
For me the touch sensor makes it an effortless process to go from printing on glass to printing on flexplate.
I just drop in a build surface in and go.

Jetguy
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:28 pm

Also, let me give you a real world scenario I ran into last weekend at my local makerspace with the latest printer using Duet Wifi and Paneldue.

I had 2 printers, nearly identical, both running Duet Wifi. I set up one here at the house, and had it on my home network. I thought well no problem I have paneldue, that gives me a touch UI interface and it even has a virtual keyboard in the console, so in theory I can just switch wifi networks. Well reality is never as nice as you envision it, and so I get there, I have to lookup the wifi setup commands (just gcode, but the command number and syntax) and then I get to the console and on the LCD, cannot figure out how to shift for capital letters required in the password. Net effect, I have to pull the micro SD card out of the now mounted and hidden mainboard, copy over a hand edited gcode file with the wifi setup command and password, and run it to get it to connect to the network. Now that story is just a tiny factor- initial setup. The comparison is, I can use the Raise 3D touch UI, have no issue except for some foreign language special characters in a password and do it with no computer.

That's what i'm trying to get at here. Yes, I love Duet, I love the fimrware, paneldue is great and has macro buttons and lots of features like even a direct gcode console. For 99% of the time, you might love it. it's that simple usage setup scenario, where I moved the printer and need to to initial setup- and sorry, Raise 3D has a clear UI edge in this usage case.

Worse, as a continuation of the story, printer number 2 also using Duet Wifi, well I caused the problem, but it was a firmware and UI update mismatch. What was happening is any macro or gcode file put on the microSD card- would not be read by the firmware. I could see the name listed, and when you try to run the file, nothing happened. Looking at the console- the board firmware was reporting it could not access the file. So my first thought was bad SD card or corrupt file. So, I made a new SD card, all new files and tried again. Again, what happened was that by copying some files since I was trying to make these 2 printers identical- I was in a firmware mismatch state. I could not see the firmwware version on the paneldue display and so did not see the error that way. Only after connecting a USB cable to the mainboard, consoling with a computer- then I began to see the mismatch, loaded all new matching firmware versions, and ran the update commands. Then it worked like a champ. This was pure user error, but again, something that even on the worst day, I could solve easier on a Raise 3D touch panel and even flash the mainboard firmware and not have to know gcode commands and syntax.

Please don't read this story the wrong way. I love everything that Duet is trying to do and do it open source. But again, there are times, where I feel like I'm in a DIY system, it's not as polished, it's not as pretty, and there are just things that are very DIY user gcode consle kind of stuff, that some people love, and others not so much.

Jetguy
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:56 pm

trae@greenlee.cc wrote:
Also, it seems to me you are all stuck on auto leveling to solve a HARDWARE problem.

I was wondering if this tired argument was going to come up, and i'm sorry for continuing to derail the thread.


This reply is aimed at all and multiple folks on the thread:

The user had leveling issues, and Z stop repeatability issues.
They may or may not have already installed auto leveling, and there in lies the firmware complaints on the stock board.
Again part of the clues here, they likely wanted to get pressure advance and auto leveling, they needed to go to a custom firmware, and that kinds of kicks this off this series of events and problems.

For reasons I don't get, they piled on the safety board issue, something I provided a fix for, it's really a function of a cabling issue to a remote thermocouple sensor- and that problem is present regardless of brand of board you choose. We can have a whole discussion on that, but the bottom line is I provided a fix or mod, then bugged Raise 3D until they offered it for free as a plug in device. And yes, details and error in that (the extra pin in some cases) that's all them. But it's a once and done kind of thing. Fix the board and then move on with life. Replacing the board requires an all new solution to "the problem" and that is, if you use thermocouples, they either must terminate at the control board and be very long and subject to flexing failure, or your use a remote thermocouple amp, and then deal with communication issues and in this case, fault failure of various cable breaks down to the mainboard. Again, changing the board- even DUET wifi or any other board- you either switch to thermistors and deal with that wiring, or you deal with thermocouples and that wiring, but either way, it all flexes and has pros and cons.

So then, I've documented the crap out of every pin on this board and it's based on Rumba. On the code front, the only real hurdle is not breaking the communications to the front panel LCD if you are trying to keep relatively stock. I'm just literally going what the heck is the user thinking? Seriously, it's fairly simple board here. It's based on the RUMBA pinout, that's a known reprap board, it's supported in all firmware branches. You then have to deal with the specifics- that this system used thermocouples stock, and that requires some configuration and understanding, and again, you could switch to thermistors, change the wiring- all those ports I too have documented- the board supports it.

This whole theory is predicated on 2 basic problems:
The user wanted to add custom features, and in doing so, never came across the right combination of firmware.
This led to a frustration of wanting to change the board. To pile onto that decision that this is a bad board, they threw the safety board fix in.
You can feel about that however you want, but again, what's I'm trying to tell you is that changing to a new board- you still have to solve "that issue" and that is the basic temp sensor and wiring problem. Then you get into not liking the Raise 3D touch front panel system for their reasons maybe wired network or whatever problem they perceive.

What I'm getting at is, changing the board is not a simple solution.
Again, if you think that changing the mainboard to get around this firmware issue and you not getting everything you want working to work- well that's 2 factors-
#1 being using a code base that supports the factory front panel LCD that causes one level of complication
#2 I just really don't understand, the second part here, the idea that changing the board to a different board, the concept everything now is that much more standardized in firmware and somehow is the magic bullet.

But then on the hardware front, changing the board has SERIOUS implications.
You have to solve this fundamental issue of the temp sensor wiring:
You either use really long thermocouple wires or special flex rated thermocouple wires because a thermocouple wire must be contiguous end to end. You can use a remote board, but just like the Raise 3D solution you now need to test and understand the remote safety implications of this more complex system of a remote board. Not to mention, digital signals over long distance represents a problem- why the current system is all analog. Alternative is then use thermistors- but that requires new wiring. See how this all circles around no matter what solution the wiring is a huge piece of the picture?

Again, my thoughts:
Fine you want to run auto leveling and custom firmware. That then drove you into a PID tuning failure and I think that is a bogus failure, that's been resolved, you just are not running the right fixed firmware. According to everything I'm reading ABH has resolved these problems in the latest firmware branches viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6244&hilit=linear&start=60#p28357
You then got frustrated because of this PID failure, and then also that you perceived you were not running the latest Marlin source, and that drove you down a path. You piled on the safety board just to justify you wanting something easier, and that changing the board makes custom firmware easier.

What I'm telling you is, there are lots of problems with this whole theory.
Changing the board requires that you address the head wiring and specifically the temp sensor system. It's not all roses. It might require changing from thermocouples to thermistors. Thermistors require the correct firmwaretable to be loaded to be accurate. That's the advantage of the thermocouple, typically plus or minus 3C accuracy with no effort or code required. Again, the disadvantage of the thermocuple is the strict requirements for correct operation. You have to use thermocouple wire all the way to the conversion thermocouple amp IC. This is what gives it that accuracy. You cannot splice in copper in the middle. I'm sure that even though the Duet Wifi has a plug in thermocouple amp board, you cannot use that board in the same remote wired way because the signal is now high speed digital, and will not survive the length of the wiring required between the factory mainboard location and the side of the head breakout. You could reuse the factory breakout and the AD 597 analog scheme, but you run the same risk as the stock mainboard- that analog signal must be able to be detected as a cable failure between the breakout and the mainboard. And then you either want to retain the Raise 3D touch or ditch it for an open source solution. Well on that front, again, nothing is as polished and usable- but that's an opinion thing.

Again, what this thread has broken down into:
#1 there is not an easier drop in board that solves your problems.
#2 on the firmware front, this PID tune thing- that should be resolved and really should be a topic with ABH or whatever branch you are running.
#3 auto leveling is already implemented and a known solution if you want to go down that road. It too requires wiring the to the remote sensor, and part of this topic and frustration is about the factory ribbon cable wiring.
#4 changing boards is going to require some level of extruder wiring change, and potentially all the same issues present with the stock system
#5 Changing the LCD panel touch UI is totally your choice. There are basically 2 branches though.
One is the Octoprint route, that's still printing over USB- a performance limit regardless of board.
The alternate is the Paneldue in conjunction with the Duet style mainboard. That is a system solution because again, the system is no longer streaming gcode like Octoprint or the factory raise 3D touch.

Jetguy
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:33 pm

FreedomRules wrote:Personally for the price I paid for the printer I'm not overly satisfied with its feature set. I feel with almost ever print I have to tweak the clearance between the hot end and glass. For me printing 2 colors is just about impossible as it seems it always nocks the piece off. I partially link that to the washboard levelness of the bed. I'm sure i could do tons of things to prep for each print to make it work but then again for the price paid I don't think I should have to. I think I need to replace my ribbon cable, stepper drivers install BL touch, thermal protection "and why that wasn't implement at the factory is beyond me and likely a lawsuit waiting to happen when someone burns there house down", filament runout sensors and update bed with thick aluminum plate.


We need to break this entire section down into totally separate issues:
#1 as a system, you are not happy. You are perfectly fine to have that opinion, and in some ways, yes, I agree, they could improve.
#2 Dual extrusion is flat out hard. It's skill as much as any hardware. You blame hardware, right now in your reply, I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but I am saying it's not the end all solution either.
#3 Levelness of the bed. Right there is where you and I disagree. A thicker plate is one solution, but the idea is the glass is the flattest surface you can buy. If you do not clamp it to a warped or warping plate, and let it float as it's own flat layer, then it is in fact the flattest surface. I'm also not going to say that the factory leveling system is easy, it's far from it. But the idea is level it once and it should not need touched for long periods of time.
#4 The adjustable stopper for the Z gap is also a problem point, it wobbles and the slightest movement can result in a difference in Z gap. The solution is put a nut on the bottom size of the screw after adjusting. Again, once and done.
#5 If you want to use auto leveling for 3-4, fine, by all means, it's been done. It requires more wiring, all subject to flexing, custom firmware and so forth. This is a user choice, you either want it or don't fine, I'm just saying, I do not see this as being a perfect solution either. It requires additional wiring subject to flexing. It requires custom firmware, and tuning of the offset gap. Last, the repeatability of the sensor is also an important factor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il9bNWn66BY
#6 Definitely, you MUST install the thermal protector. I'm sorry this exists, but it's free, just install the thing and move on.
#7 The ribbon cable can and will fail. On the other hand, a little more attention to routing, preventing repeated high flex points at the ends of the cable chain- and some pinching we saw in sloppy installs in the cable chain- not the end of the world. At the end of the day on every printer made this must be addressed- regardless of brand. Wiring that flexes can and WILL FAIL. Even a DIY solution and changing the mainboard, this is an area you will spend time on.


With that in mind does anyone have any recommendations on a new controller board and firmware. I was thinking like smoothieware or MK4Duo.

I will say this, DO NOT run Smoothie firmware. The fact you even bring it up, you have no idea the can of worms you get into. If you buy a 3rd party board- expect the smoothie firmware developers to be very unfriendly.
This is the first time hearing of MK4Duo, and being honest, I don't see any advantage over other solutions.
https://github.com/MKFirmware/MK4duo
I have no idea what board you intended to pair to that firmware.


I'm having a hard time getting Marlin 1.8 and 2.0 working on the current hardware as I'm guessing its how they've implemented the whole solution. I can get parts but not everything fully working. So going with an aftermarket board I'd be more able to keep up with current releases on firmware vs the older 1.6 they have for us currently if I stick with Marlin. I'm waiting for the next great firmware. I've tried to find were someone did the same printer and just swapped out boards and firmware and printed like 20 different objects with complex shapes to compare quality.

I think I've covered this quite extensively. The reason why you don't see a topic even after searching of an alternate board is:
#1 changing to an alternate board requires massive wiring changes, dealing with some the remote temp sensor issues present now.
#2 Firmware is not the fix so changing the board to run new firmware is not the fix. Really, what magical thing do you think is resolved or improved in Marlin 2.0?
#3 The cost of moving to a new board is significant, at least $300 for and end to end equivalent Duet Wifi setup. You can go hybrid, where you just replace the mainboard and use the existing LCD and pcduino- but that's STILL printing over USB and all the limitations of that most basic decision.
#4 This all combines to why you do not see "were someone did the same printer and just swapped out boards and firmware and printed like 20 different objects with complex shapes to compare quality".


Mainly want to copy files over network to device and either issue a cli command or have something like mattercontrol or octoprint or some other smart touchscreen controller.

Again, covered above, you are trading bad plan A for bad plan B. If you use Octoprint, Astroprint, Mattercontrol, or any other USB based streaming service, that's NOT different than stock. You might like the UI or features, but at a fundamental level, you either are getting out of the USB streaming gcode system or you are moving to direct attached storage like the way printing from a directly attached SD card works.

trae@greenlee.cc
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:47 pm

FreedomRules wrote:Personally for the price...

well shoot, i typed out a long reply but apparently didn't publish before leaving the page.
In summary it said, you want to automate z tool height, we can do it and you dont have to replace all the hardware if you dont wish to.
And the other important bit, borofloat glass (i assume it borosilicate based on its color) is usually very flat. Could be you have a bad piece or its over constrained. How flat is it if you dont pin down the edges?

Jetguy
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Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:12 pm

Again, I just want to ensure we are dead clear on the safety board thing.
The failure is an architecture limitation. If you want to have thermocouples, and there are lots of good reasons for using that type of temp sensor, then there are a lot of rules involved. The chosen solution was to use a remote thermocouple amp, to prevent the typical flexing related failures of a long thermocuple wire set, since thermocouple wire is often single strand wire due it being required to be very specific metals. Again, the remote board at the extruder head is a solution to a problem and that is putting the termination of the thermocouple at the head so a very short thermocouple is wire to the heater block is used, and in a way that prevents flexing failures. Then, because of that decision and architecture design, the thermocouple amp breakout can be connected to the mainboard using copper wiring, that is much easier and cheaper to find a flexible solution. That however, does not come without issues. Due to the placement of the mainboard, the size of the printer, and total wiring distance, digital thermocouple amp signalling either requires shielded and custom communications protocols to go that distance, or the use of analog signals. They chose analog as a low cost and relatively simpler solution. However, that too comes with it's own downfall. If a digital signal is broken, the protocol catches it rather quickly. With the analog scheme, the device reading this voltage has to then sense when this voltage is stray. Because an analog to digital conversion is is happening at the mainboard, and most circuits use high impedance and filter capacitors, then they exhibit a lack of being able to detect when the thermocouple amp circuit is broken- AKA the ribbon cable failure.

Again, at the end of the day, one decision drives another. You get to the size of this printer, and it simply came down to:
Thermistor or Thermocouple? Well thermocouple is more accurate, easier to code for math wise (no complex lookup table for the curve of a thermistor). You also get into because of the classic wiring issues (2-3 fans, 2 heaters, 2 temp sensors, maybe an LED, 2 stepper motors) there is a lot of wiring to the extruder head. By making a breakout board, this solves wiring termination and connectors to off the shelf fans and other parts. So, thermocouple was decided and remote breakout.
That drove the thermocouple amp type decision- analog or digital- because of the complexity of off the shelf thermocouple amps not being ideally suited for digital signal over that length of wire. So analog being cheap and proven was chosen (FYI, Ultimaker uses AD597 and remote thermocouple analog signalling the exact same way). What is lesser known, is that the exact same fault can bite you in the rear on an Ultimaker or any other analog remote thermocouple amp setup. Unless you specifically address this high impedance pullup, the typical ADC pin on a microcontroller cannot detect a fault mid print without this additional high impedance pullup resistor at the processor pin. To my knowledge, At least on an Ultmaker 1, and I've not seen or heard any discussion on UM2, i'm not seeing this addressed. It's fails less on those printers because of the arching cabling system- not unlike the Raise3D N1- not a cable chain. That's the ironic part, a cable chain is supposed to prevent cable failure, by limiting bend radius and handling all aspects of cable management, but in our case on the N2 and N2 Plus, it can be and is a cause of cable failure do to specifics of the routing at the ends. Again, the very thing meant to save the cable- sadly may cause the cable the fail.

Again, what I'm getting at is, you either address this on the stock mainboard, or you address this on the replacement mainboard, but you are going to address it no matter what system you install.

trae@greenlee.cc
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:44 pm

I'm going to second the disappointment in R3D response to the thermocouple issue.
It appears to be serious enough to warrant a recall and replacement of the boards, the least they could do is the plugin fix and they still haven't sent the one i ordered, not that i need them to, it just speaks to their priorities.
correct me if im wrong but UM3 does not use a AD597, nor a thermocoupler that would need one. Looks like the PT100 temperature sensor connects directly to the ina826 (thorough an interposer) on the motionboard along with accompanying pullup pulldown resisters to mitigate floating inputs in case of wire breakage.
https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker3/blob/master/PCB%20files/1548-I%20Ultimainboard/Schematics%20and%20layout%20pdf/Schematic%20Prints.PDF
https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker3/blob/master/PCB%20files/2012-K%20Print%20head%20PCB/Schematic%20and%20layout%20pdf/Schematic%20Prints_printhead_2012-K_01.PDF

Jetguy
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:54 pm

trae@greenlee.cc wrote:I'm going to second the disappointment in R3D response to the thermocouple issue.
It appears to be serious enough to warrant a recall and replacement of the boards, the least they could do is the plugin fix and they still haven't sent the one i ordered, not that i need them to, it just speaks to their priorities.
correct me if im wrong but UM3 does not use a AD597, nor a thermocoupler that would need one. Looks like the PT100 temperature sensor connects directly to the ina826 (thorough an interposer) on the motionboard along with accompanying pullup pulldown resisters to mitigate floating inputs in case of wire breakage.
https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker3/blob/master/PCB%20files/1548-I%20Ultimainboard/Schematics%20and%20layout%20pdf/Schematic%20Prints.PDF
https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker3/blob/master/PCB%20files/2012-K%20Print%20head%20PCB/Schematic%20and%20layout%20pdf/Schematic%20Prints_printhead_2012-K_01.PDF


Correct, why I mentioned UM 1 and 2 specifically because I know they in fact use AD597.
UM3 is a different animal with locking plug in hotends- something Raise 3D could take a lesson from.
Again, they brag how Pro the new series is, well it's not a modular no wiring hotend- so they (Raise3D) are behind the curve.

Jetguy
Posts: 2697
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby Jetguy » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:19 pm

And just in case, say you have a different opinion on Smoothie- just take a look at the one topic today.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... qB2zq8GhnA
It also appears S3D is not a host you can use with Smoothie as it appears to ignore the well documented protocol of !! which says halt. I suggest you do NOT use S3D as a host as it had never really been able to reliably talk to smoothie, and appears to not follow the reprap protocol.


Point being, don't say you use an alternate board, and whatever you do, don't say you use S3D to slice, because it only goes downhill from there.

trae@greenlee.cc
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: Migrate to different board and firmware

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:20 pm

Jetguy wrote:
trae@greenlee.cc wrote:I'm going to second the disappointment in R3D response to the thermocouple issue.
It appears to be serious enough to warrant a recall and replacement of the boards, the least they could do is the plugin fix and they still haven't sent the one i ordered, not that i need them to, it just speaks to their priorities.
correct me if im wrong but UM3 does not use a AD597, nor a thermocoupler that would need one. Looks like the PT100 temperature sensor connects directly to the ina826 (thorough an interposer) on the motionboard along with accompanying pullup pulldown resisters to mitigate floating inputs in case of wire breakage.
https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker3/blob/master/PCB%20files/1548-I%20Ultimainboard/Schematics%20and%20layout%20pdf/Schematic%20Prints.PDF
https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker3/blob/master/PCB%20files/2012-K%20Print%20head%20PCB/Schematic%20and%20layout%20pdf/Schematic%20Prints_printhead_2012-K_01.PDF


Correct, why I mentioned UM 1 and 2 specifically because I know they in fact use AD597.
UM3 is a different animal with locking plug in hotends- something Raise 3D could take a lesson from.
Again, they brag how Pro the new series is, well it's not a modular no wiring hotend- so they (Raise3D) are behind the curve.


Ah snap, UM2 doesn't use it either. https://github.com/Ultimaker/Ultimaker2 ... v2.1.1_(x1)/Main%20Board%20V2.1.1.pdf
I'm not going to dig up a schematic for UM1 but if its uses PT100 sensor it wont either.


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