Palette+ and N2 Set up

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JohnSays
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Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby JohnSays » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:25 am

I am close to buying a Mosaic Palette+, but then I started thinking about where I would put my filament and how the Palette works with the N2. I don't know if I can make the space to use it.

I'm hoping some of you using the Palette could post some pictures of your set up so that I can see how I might set mine up.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

Timber
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby Timber » Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:13 am

IMG2336.jpg

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JohnSays
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby JohnSays » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:17 am

Thanks Timber. Do you have a hole in the top of the enclosure? How is you filament being fed in?
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

Jetguy
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:47 am

I would say no, you cannot use the top enclosure as shown. I'm not saying you cannot use an enclosure with the palette (I know your intent is ABS and ABS "like" materials), however, that path and the bend radius if all you did was drill a hole in the lid isn't going to cut the mustard.

There are a couple of simple rules with the palette, and yet implementing them is a challenge unless you really understand it.
#1 You must have a controlled bend radius of the filament exiting the palette all the way until consumed by the extruder and especially at the tube to entrance of the extruder is the one place most likely to be hard. WHY? Because when you slap that short lid on there, it ALREADY bends the factory supplied guide tubes. With the palette, you now have the encoder in the middle and thicker guide tubes to further limit bend radius so you don't break splices (very important as while ABS splicing works, they are not the same bending strength as PLA splices and can be broken)
#2 You have to account for the loading sequence, the start of the print, being able to remove the lid for loading. This isn't load the filament and print like before. You start over each job with cut and spliced filament. That means it starts and goes through the guide tube and then must feed into the extruder and then you lock the guide tube into the top guide on the extruder to ensure bend radius limit is maintained.
#3 You also have to be careful if you decide to extend the guide tube, it's important to maintain secure connections and all the other details.

sylus
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby sylus » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:08 pm

with this setup had no problems
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2829055

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JohnSays
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby JohnSays » Wed May 16, 2018 8:44 pm

Thank you both.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

NewbPilot
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby NewbPilot » Sat May 19, 2018 3:47 am

Jetguy wrote:I would say no, you cannot use the top enclosure as shown. I'm not saying you cannot use an enclosure with the palette (I know your intent is ABS and ABS "like" materials), however, that path and the bend radius if all you did was drill a hole in the lid isn't going to cut the mustard.

There are a couple of simple rules with the palette, and yet implementing them is a challenge unless you really understand it.


Im curious if you still use the factory file settings for your Palette after all this time. I copied one of your S3D profiles when I got my palette last year and I still use it. Works fine, except it doesnt purge the nozzle before the start. Normally not a problem, as the skirt printing usually gets the plastic flowing.

HOWEVER tonight I tried to print a super small part, and it didnnt get enough filament out on the first 2-3 layers to really adhere to the bed, so it ended up failing. I want to add a purge to the starting gcode. Is it as easy as just adding a
G92 E0
G1 F200 E10
G92 E0

to this gcode i pulled from your factory file?

G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
;G1 F ;Mosaic said the original code wasnt supported by chroma so commented this out
M117 Printing...
M1001
; **** end of start.gcode ****

Thanks

I

Jetguy
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby Jetguy » Sat May 19, 2018 3:58 am

Actually, let me give you a new setup because it ties into another discussion about an errant flow rate setup being left in active firmware memory.
G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 Z0.5
M221 T0 S100
G92 E0
G1 F140 E30
G92 E0
M117 Printing...
M1001
; **** end of start.gcode ****

Here is also my tip and thought. At some point, some script I got for the N series used 30mm starting prime. I know some might say that seems excessive, but here is the difference, 10mm may not make a long enough noodle over the edge of the bed to properly break off and not get dragged by the nozzle. A longer purge like 30mm is really not much filament, but makes a much more likely to break off piece, not get dragged into the print, and easier to clean up out of the bottom of your printer.

Second part is, the M221 T0 S100 sets the flowrate multiplier in firmware to 100% meaning 1:1 matching the gcode length. I've seen issues where Ideamaker profiles leave a lesser flowrate after a print, and this throws off your precision calibration off by a huge amount when using the palette.

mb300sd
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby mb300sd » Wed May 23, 2018 3:46 am

Had the Palette+ for a week so far. Here's my setup, your mileage may vary with ABS, so you might want to mount it differently, but so far my PLA splices are pretty much as strong as the original filament. I extended the tube by cutting the very end off the short piece included, drilling it out to 4mm, and gluing in a countersunk piece of standard teflon tubing.

With the bondtech extruder, the extrusion is incredibly consistent, all my pings are within 100±0.4%. Current Chroma settings are 50mm transition length and 20% target, and I'm probably going to try lower next time since I still have a good amount of the new color extruded before going back to the print. I always load the filament from the utilities menu, which lets you get a consistent <1mm loading.

The 5% default for sparse transition tower caused some issues, it seems like Chroma underextrudes rather than using an infill pattern, which led to enough roughness on the tower to cause skipped steps. I've switched to side transitions which work fine.
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jetdillo
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby jetdillo » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:12 am

For those of you who have the Palette+, what would you say your main uses of it are ?
Better multi-color ? multi-material ?

I don't run my printer as a business/service bureau, so I don't have a business need to justify it at the moment.
Mosaic is having a 20% off sale right now though on the Palette+, so I'm kind of tempted at that price, but it's still a bit out of reach.

Jetguy
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby Jetguy » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:17 pm

I love doing the multi color thing, but the absolute best feature of the palette+ is doing multi material.
I've done the PVA style support material and PLA for your print testing, and flat out it works. I was using E3D scaffold PVA based support material do to the specific properties of the material- the fact it can take and not burn in the nozzle at higher temps like normal "plain" PVA, the fact it has some fiber infill that makes it weld and splice the filament better, and makes the other actual print material stick better to the support during the print until you wash it away. I which I had more pictures of those tests, but it simply worked.

But the test I ran quite a lot of was PLA and TPU/TPE mixed prints. This turned out so much better than the typical dual extrusion print.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby Andy Cohen » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:33 pm

jetdillo wrote:For those of you who have the Palette+, what would you say your main uses of it are ?
Better multi-color ? multi-material ?

I don't run my printer as a business/service bureau, so I don't have a business need to justify it at the moment.
Mosaic is having a 20% off sale right now though on the Palette+, so I'm kind of tempted at that price, but it's still a bit out of reach.

hmmmm... In my experienced opinion... The very last thing you would ever want the Palette for is something related to business goals!!!
I totally LOVE my Palette+... WHEN IT WORKS!!!
Unfortunately, most of the time it does not. I printed TONS with my palette and REALLY tested it HARD with multiple printers for the podcast.
1. Your printer MUST be optimized. That is, all aspects MUST be verified, tested and you should have high reliability with the materials you intend to use. Also, the extruder feeder has to be VERY accurate. No slipping, no missed steps. NONE. The Palette inserts TONS more variables that YOU have to control for. The last thing you need with the Palette are issues from the printer.
2. The Palette is default set up for PLA. If you're thinking ABS to PLA to PVA or to ... TPU... then you should dig into the multi material FAQS in the Mosaic website for the info and you will see you will be off into unchartered water in many cases.
3. All spools of material have to have similar enough characteristics so that each spool splices with each other spool. There's no settings per spool. As such your best bet is to use 4 spools from the same producer and those 4 spools need to have fairly close glass points. ALL filaments used MUST NOT BE BRITTLE at all. Otherwise you do not get good splices and you also get clogs throughout the palette.
4. Be prepared to see a lot of filament go into the trash. From restarts, transition towers and unfortunately lots of failed prints.
5. Be ready for disappointment from all the fails... and extreme elation from the successes.
6. Be ready for having to learn GOBS of new things you will need to understand.
7. Most of the users out there who I read who post about lots of success with the Palette say the following: "If you come across an object which you cannot seem to get success with, you should simply move on..." Really?! In other words... BE SKEPTICAL. most "Happy" Palette users I read seem to put their focus on relatively easy to do objects that are low in Z height. Very few Palette users seem to TEST IT as I have.
8. Mine (and others out there) has a defect which makes for failed splices for no known reason well into a very long print. The failed splice is either from too much heat or no heat at all, which may be from PID control or it may be from the 2 steppers not working in synch correctly. Mosaic has recently finally fessed up to seeing it in one of their in-house units and are attempting to figure it out. Until this issue is understood and fixed you take your chances. Actually, I'm not fully convinced it's an issue specific to some but not all. I think its a systemic issue but I see it only because of the kind of printing nut that I am.
9. Forget about using the palette for objects that use a lot of retractions. For example... a Cells Bowl or the Voronoi Yoda (both from Dizingof). Lots of retractions will reap havoc on the scroll wheel's ability to keep up. It will start to miss pings and then the palette will get totally confused. I do not think it's the physical wheel thats the problem, I think it's the Palette's controllers and data interfaces are simply not fast enough.

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jetdillo
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby jetdillo » Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:55 am

Andy Cohen wrote:
jetdillo wrote:For those of you who have the Palette+, what would you say your main uses of it are ?
Better multi-color ? multi-material ?

I don't run my printer as a business/service bureau, so I don't have a business need to justify it at the moment.
Mosaic is having a 20% off sale right now though on the Palette+, so I'm kind of tempted at that price, but it's still a bit out of reach.

hmmmm... In my experienced opinion... The very last thing you would ever want the Palette for is something related to business goals!!!
I totally LOVE my Palette+... WHEN IT WORKS!!!
Unfortunately, most of the time it does not. I printed TONS with my palette and REALLY tested it HARD with multiple printers for the podcast..


Thanks for the braindump Andy. I think I will pass for now. I just don't have time to dive into another product that is also a project.
My Raise3D is enough of that by itself already :)

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JohnSays
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Re: Palette+ and N2 Set up

Postby JohnSays » Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:54 pm

Thanks for the insight Andy. Nice of you to take the time to inform us about your adventures in Mosaic Land. I just got a Palette+ but I have not finished installing it. That is, I'm not happy with the first way I set it up to print ABS through the enclosure -- too long a filament run.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+


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