Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

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Aisha.brennon
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Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Aisha.brennon » Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:04 pm

Hi All!
I currently have the N2plus single extruder and I want to switch to a dual extruder with the bond tech upgrade. Can someone point me in the right direction of what parts I need to order for all of this to take place?
Thanks in advance!

Jetguy
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:08 pm

I would tell you to not do this.
Don't get me wrong, absolutely do the Bondtech upgrade. Yes, but you have a choice.
You already have the far better single nozzle setup, better for 99% of all prints.
For some reason, you have it in your head that dual is just so much better, you need it so badly, I need dual material for support or color reasons. What you fail to take into account again is 99% of all prints are single extruder prints and the penalty of less cooling (removing the good layer cooling fan you have now) sticking a second nozzle and trying to level them exactly, the added weight of 2 motors VS one.
Go single, save yourself the headache. http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits ... grade.html

If you insist on going dual:
https://www.raise3d.com/collections/3d- ... pare-parts

Hot end assembly complete with nozzle $80
https://www.raise3d.com/collections/3d- ... ssembly-v2

Heater cartridge $5
https://www.raise3d.com/collections/3d- ... heater-rod

https://www.raise3d.com/collections/3d- ... rmocoupler
Note, you may already have a thermocouple bundled up in the cable chain, but having a spare does not hurt.

Spare cooling fan for that side $4
https://www.raise3d.com/collections/3d- ... truder-fan

3D print the plastic duct (because even the factory duct is 3D printed) viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8

Jetguy
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:11 pm

Most single units already have the second extruder feeder motor cable and thermocouple hidden in the cable chain. I would check and know before buying parts. Second, most every one I have ever seen has both stepper drivers for DUAL extruders installed. Again, would be wise to know and check before ordering. You have to adjust the stepper drivers as part of the Bondtech upgrade and that you have a good meter and know how to use it is all part of this. http://shop.bondtech.se/shop/ws71/47371 ... t.docx.pdf

Jetguy
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:12 pm

Again, I think you need to step back read those instructions, see what you have, and see if you are up to the task of the upgrade. I'm not saying that to single you out, just given recent comments by others, some people had issues with instructions not hand walking them how to use the meter, how to unplug a connector with glue and so forth.

EldRick
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby EldRick » Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:51 pm

Personally I'm converting from dual-extruder to single, with the new Bondtech single upgrade on the way.

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easysofts
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby easysofts » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:57 pm

EldRick wrote:Personally I'm converting from dual-extruder to single, with the new Bondtech single upgrade on the way.


Hi EldRick, your answer interest me.
I have other printers with Bondtech single kit pre-installed and they work great !

I print already on the left nozzle and I removed right nozzle on N2 Dual + due to :
- poor succes with dual extrusion
- most of print are make in single
- right nozzle occasionaly braack the print

Now, I would like to use my N2 Dual + with the BondTech upgrade kit

1 / I don't know which one to choose: DualDirect or SingleDirect?
$250 or $110 (http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits ... grade.html)

2 / Does the weight of the DualDirect finally make it possible to use the 2 nozzles without problem?

3 / Why did you choose SingleDirect?

4 / I don't see anyone get great impressions in Dual (with or without bondtech), I'm wrong ? :?

Would buying SingleDirect upgrade + Palette+ is the most reliable solution
I check everyday if there is "on sale" for palette+ (https://amzn.to/2HqrCcQ) but I hesitate $800 :o

Thanks in advance!
Machines Brand : Raise3D / Wanhao / BCN3D

Jetguy
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Jetguy » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:46 pm

1 / I don't know which one to choose: DualDirect or SingleDirect?
$250 or $110 (http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits ... grade.html)

Pretty simple, which do you want, a dual or a single extruder?

2 / Does the weight of the DualDirect finally make it possible to use the 2 nozzles without problem?

Define without a problem. It's a feeder, it's lighter than stock, it grips better and stronger than stock, it has more resolution than stock. However, at the crux of this is most prints are single extrusion. Dual extrusion nozzle can strike models on large and long prints, it's one more thing to level and adjust. So as such, changing a feeder doesn't magically change everything else complex about dual extrusion. You either need dual extrusion or you don't. You either want to upgrade and maintain dual extrusion or you don't. The Pro2 series comes with a Bondtech for a reason- users demanded it.

3 / Why did you choose SingleDirect?

For all the reasons listed above of why most prints are single extrusion, sometimes dual extrusion is not ideal on a single extrusion print, maybe a person decided they want the best single extruder printer.

4 / I don't see anyone get great impressions in Dual (with or without bondtech), I'm wrong ? :?

There is an 11 page thread and a previous 36 page thread of Bondtech upgrade.
The Pro series comes with it standard.

Would buying SingleDirect upgrade + Palette+ is the most reliable solution
I check everyday if there is "on sale" for palette+ (https://amzn.to/2HqrCcQ) but I hesitate $800 :o

With anything, there is a challenge and tradeoff. Yes, I think the Bondtech single, and single extruder with the factory cooling fan is easily a step above in basic performance (specifically layer cooling) compared to a dual. Now, I love the palette and I own 3 and I use them for over 2 years now with the Raise 3D printers. But, like everything else, tradeoff. Yes, using a palette gives you massive capabilities, but you also need to master 3D printing, slicing, STL manipulation, and last, there is a minor tradeoff in that palette requires some type of purge to clear your nozzle from one material or color to the next. Also, need to add discussion that Ideamaker simply does not support slicing for the Palette (toolhead offset and only 2 nozzles really limits what Ideamaker can do) so you need a 3rd party slicer like Simplify 3D or you can use Cura for free. Either way, involves you first setting up another slicing software for the printer, and then mastering it to use the maximum capabilities presented with adding the Palette+. Second, unless you find one second hand, that already is the reduced price for the Palette+. I don't know what mythical sale you think is going to happen, it simply costs that because of what it is and the complexity of making them. As much as I want to sell you a Palette+ and believe in it, the rule is master the printer first before you go adding a layer of complexity.

What further complicates this is hedging a bet. If you believe dual extrusion is the way to go, the new Pro2 already comes with the Bondtech dual extruder and the new moving lifting nozzles that help reduce some of the negatives of dual nozzle implications. Given it's $1k higher pricetag, it's right in the range of what a Bondtech upgrade and Palette+ cost.
It's just a complex time right now with a lot of options you should really review.

EldRick
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby EldRick » Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:42 pm

Why did you choose SingleDirect?

I saw too many prints messed up by having the second unused extruder.
The main reason I bought a dual in the first place was to have a spare printhead. I had originally hoped to use the second head for a second nozzle-size, but the practical considerations finally convinced me to remove the second nozzle. I ordered the single Bondtech to remove even more moving mass from the head for better/faster print quality - no point is slinging the weight of that second motor around.
The Pro versions should greatly reduce some of the issues of the N2, but will add more moving mass to the assembly, although the Bondtech should more than compensate for that.
Bottom line: if you don't have a real need for dual extrusion, don't get it, as it rarely works as well as you would like.

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JohnSays
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby JohnSays » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:09 am

My 2 cents: I use dual extrusion extensively and have the BondTec BMG upgrade on both my N2s. There is a learning curve to getting dual extrusion to work right. JetGuy was instrumental in making me aware of the issues with calibrating for dual extrusion. I did my homework and now it is paying off. Now, having said that, I will also say that I have only had great success with using the second (right) extruder for support. I have not had a need to print in more than one color but I did need support.

I print mainly ABS and ASA, so the Palette will not help me at this point. Maybe in the future Mosaic will make a Palette that can do ASA with support.. Then I will have another learning curve :-)
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

Jetguy
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Jetguy » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:05 am

People have been testing the Palette with ABS. I don't have any ASA, but previous limitations and worries are no longer valid in the latest palette+. I'll have to get some ASA material and run some tests for you.

The biggest problem is I do not normally print with ABS anymore. My N1 which is what I primarily use the palette with is no longer "enclosed" (took the side panels and doors off long ago and requires major work to install due to hidden screw locations).

I can run some HIPS and ABS splicing tonight. Just for reference, Mosaic is now including several default material profiles such as PETG, Soluble (PVA), TPU/TPE, and of course, PLA. Proof that at least one user besides me is testing ABS and it is functional https://www.facebook.com/groups/mosaic. ... 520227491/
Last edited by Jetguy on Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JohnSays
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby JohnSays » Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:19 am

Thanks you JetGuy! I can send you some ASA samples if you want to PM me with an address. I have some from three different manufacturers and in different colors. I use HIPS for the support with ASA.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers, run-out sensor, thermal overload protection resistors on motion controller board, Firmware 1.1.8ABH - with Lin_Advance, Palette+

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easysofts
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby easysofts » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:24 am

Hi Jetguy, Thanks for your detailed tips
Jetguy wrote:
1 / I don't know which one to choose: DualDirect or SingleDirect?
$250 or $110 (http://shop.bondtech.se/en/upgrade-kits ... grade.html)

I opted for DualDirect, directly baught on bondtech, shipped in 48h, mounted in 10 min :)
Would buying SingleDirect upgrade + Palette+ is the most reliable solution
I check everyday if there is "on sale" for palette+ (https://amzn.to/2HqrCcQ) but I hesitate $800 :o

Ok, I checked your pro and cons about Palette+, your advise make the difference.
I added N2 Dual + on my park because I baught at a very cheap price. Now, I can't buy the Pro2+ .
I modelize on Fusion (or tinkercad) and Blender, I play with .stl and I use S3D since 3 years with other printers, but purge to clear the nozzle from one material or color to the next : that bother me. :?
I need to ponder on this investment...
Machines Brand : Raise3D / Wanhao / BCN3D

Spikeysonic
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby Spikeysonic » Fri May 04, 2018 7:53 pm

EldRick wrote:
Why did you choose SingleDirect?

I saw too many prints messed up by having the second unused extruder.
The main reason I bought a dual in the first place was to have a spare printhead. I had originally hoped to use the second head for a second nozzle-size, but the practical considerations finally convinced me to remove the second nozzle. I ordered the single Bondtech to remove even more moving mass from the head for better/faster print quality - no point is slinging the weight of that second motor around.
The Pro versions should greatly reduce some of the issues of the N2, but will add more moving mass to the assembly, although the Bondtech should more than compensate for that.
Bottom line: if you don't have a real need for dual extrusion, don't get it, as it rarely works as well as you would like.



Can you elaborate with the N2 issues as tryign to see how many I have experienced and may help understand the problems I have been having

EldRick
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Re: Wanting to go from single to dual extruder

Postby EldRick » Mon May 07, 2018 5:49 am

With a fixed second head, even if adjusted perfectly, there are too many times when a print gets messed up by the second head traveling across material printed by the first head.
All plastic shrinks when cooling, which usually causes it to curl upward, right into the path of the other head. I also got tired of seeing shallow grooves on flat top surfaces.
And swapping nozzles on the N2 carries enough risk of breaking something that I've not been interested in doing it often.
So far, in five years, I've been able to print everything I cared to with a single extruder, and the N2 implementation of dual-head is too fussy to be worth it, for me.

BTW, I have a used Bondtech Dual for sale. PM me if interested.


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