E3D v6 Adaptor

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Jetguy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:22 pm

Also, if we are going the deep discussion, adding this protector actually in theory raises the reported temp. Again, stock, the impedance is so high, that even after unplugging the cable, the mainboard will still read the same temp for basically forever in my own testing. That's how little bleed or current is involved here. The protector or the mod do the same thing, add a 1 meg resistor to pull up the signal towards 5V. As also discussed, the voltage to temp conversion is simple, 10mV = 1C. So what happens is, we very weakly pull up with a lot of resistance (1 megaohm) so barely microamps of current VS the resistance of the wire, and the output drive capability of the AD597. Again, this is why the resistor value was chosen, it had to be extremely high to not offset the temp in operation, but in open circuit failure, be able to raise the sense pin to 5V in a reasonable timeframe to now detect the open circuit fault.

FreedomRules
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:34 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby FreedomRules » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:16 pm

Jetguy wrote:Actually no, there is zero current. That's the thing to understand, resistance affects current, not voltage.
A 1 meg resistor to a voltage, is still the exact same voltage at both sides. The ADC inputs of the mega2560 processor at the mainboard are extremely high impedance. Basically you are charging a tiny capacitor. There is no measurable current. As such, there is no voltage lost and that's part of the issue, why the protection board is a must, why we had a fault the other day, why I made the videos that show you can unplug the cable in operation and the voltage does not even drop.


I follow along on some of this. In reference to your statement "resistance affects current, not voltage". I'm guessing thats in application only to thermocouples or signal voltages that don't carry an actual current? As wiring for automotive amplifiers and AC the wire's own resistance does affect voltage drop. I have an app EW Pro just for that very reason to calculate voltage drops so I can make sure I have the right size conductor for longer runs or higher volts as to not damage equipment with to low of voltage. I could see where if you have no true load across conductors then there would be no real drop.

In the end I'll just do a temp tower and ignoring what the temp says is likely the best route as suggested. I'm just one of those annoying people who ask alot of questions as I like to know how things work.

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Jetguy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:25 pm

You aren't wrong for asking and hey, everyone should be asking questions and understanding the mousetrap we all own and bought. Raise 3D isn't going to tell you some of this technical detail.
Again, in general, a signal wire and especially the one in question, carries no appreciable current and in this case, it's so small, you might have a hard time measuring it. Like a said, the fact the cable can be unplugged and the voltage at the pin doesn't even drop (holds the charge), that's just a whole new level near nothing for current.

trae@greenlee.cc
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:37 pm

Nothing to do with thermocouplers this is basic electronics.
In this case the arduinos 100Mohm input resistance (https://www.arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/DigitalPins) effectively make the three feet of wire's resistance (~0.048 ohms) moot (https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-5/simple-series-circuits/).

https://www.cirris.com/learning-center/calculators/133-wire-resistance-calculator-table

I'm waiting on a job to finish so i can check the 2nd tool head's PID autotune on my machine.
It was there when i setup my dual awhile back fw 1.1.6 iirc

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Jetguy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Sadly, I just got around to installing one of my adapters into my N2 Plus. I'm using the E3D titanium thermal barrier, E3D copper heater block, and a genuine E3D 0.4mm nozzle they gave away at MRRF that has a magical pixy dust coating (I'm not kidding, they said that while handing them out). I also have the absolute latest Bondtech feeder- the new single extruder variant just released.

The main reason for trying this was that a member at the local Makerspace was having trouble with genuine Ninjaflex filament and even using a Bondtech feeder, the filament was periodically jamming at the small gap and the cone entrance of the factory Raise3D V2 hotend.
I've talked about this in the past using this diagram viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2276&p=16789&hilit=cone+shaped#p16789
extruder cross section.jpg
extruder cross section.jpg (46.45 KiB) Viewed 1460 times


So, when building this new setup today using the E3D adapter, since this already uses a 4mm OD PTFE tube, I went back to my "spare" parts bin and broke out the custom drilled center crossing block plastic filament guide also drilled out to 4mm.
Drilled filament guide.JPG
Drilled filament guide.JPG (9.59 KiB) Viewed 1460 times

Drilled filament guide2.JPG
Drilled filament guide2.JPG (13.33 KiB) Viewed 1460 times

The idea being put in a new super slick Capricorn PTFE tube (not shown in these pictures because I'm printing at this second), that goes all the way from the Bondtech feeder output to the new E3D thermal barrier tube entrance, all as one long piece. The whole idea is to give the absolute smoothest friction free guide path with minimal junctions between the Bondtech feeder and the very entrance of the E3D hotend- specifically to vastly improve the softer flexible filament performance over stock. There simply are no gaps for the filament to buckle under compression compared to what can happen with the stock V2 hotend system.

I have to say, this seems to be working extremely well. First I printed a known test file in PLA just to test the basic system, bed Z-gap adjustment, and other basic details after the upgrade. Now I'm printing the exact same file at 50% feed rate as set on the LCD screen just to see what happens. The result seems to just be amazing. Heck I even used the normal filament load sequence without changing speeds for unloading the PLA and then loading ninjaflex.

I'm honestly kicking myself for not doing this sooner. Don't get me wrong, the stock V2 hotends for me have generally worked well, there have been jams with them, flexible filaments had limitations on speed and other factors, but now, just a first test run and using a harder to print filament like Ninjaflex, it really seems to be a major improvement.
IMG_0225.JPG
IMG_0226.JPG

trae@greenlee.cc
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Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:11 pm

Glad its working well for you.
I am also running sleeved crossing tube with out issue. I plan on testing some 65 durometer filament but haven't taken the time out to do.
at the moment the N2 with these mods is my goto machine for ninja flex jobs.
I dont have any of the fancy E3D parts just plan old brass and stainless bits.
IMG_20180214_103756.jpg

Jetguy
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Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Jetguy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:45 pm

More details on my setup. My tube length ended up being 87mm long.
IMG_0227.JPG

IMG_0228.JPG

IMG_0229.JPG

IMG_0230.JPG

IMG_0231.JPG
Last edited by Jetguy on Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
Posts: 2700
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Jetguy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 10:49 pm

Here is the final result compared to PLA. Yes, some stringing from retraction is expected, neither PLA or Ninjaflex were tuned, this is the default "Speed- PLA" profile. If you zoom in, ninjaflex actually produced less stringing in the "Y" than the PLA did- likely due to too high a temp for that specific roll of PLA.
Ninjaflex.jpg
Last edited by Jetguy on Mon Apr 09, 2018 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

trae@greenlee.cc
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Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:12 pm

very nice

theory
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:27 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby theory » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:30 pm

I just put in a request for 2 via the google form, these look great

trae@greenlee.cc
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Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:12 pm

FreedomRules wrote: I can't select the right for autotune as it just says left with no selection option but I believe I read somewhere current firmware doesn't support controlling them separately. I'm running 1.1.8ABH firmware. Any input would be appreciated.



Sorry for the delay, N2 is my only 300mm machine and it took this long to get some down time.
In the current release of Raise Touch (.97) PID autotune fails to give an option to tune both nozzles.
Installing the previous version (.92) restores the ability to autotune both nozzles.
For now you could swap wires, tune then copy settings to right nozzle in manual mode or just copy the settings from left to right nozzles if you wish.
Note: when I tried the "tune then copy" recommendation my touch screen running version .97 consistently locked up when i set iterations to two.

IMG_20180420_115518.jpg
Last edited by trae@greenlee.cc on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FreedomRules
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Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:34 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby FreedomRules » Wed Apr 25, 2018 11:26 pm

Do any of your adapter blocks seem excessively loose thread wise. I purchased 2 of these adapter blocks, 2 titanium e3d breaks and 2 copper e3d blocks. Between the copper block and the titanium break its super solid and tight but between the adapter block and the titanium break its loose. Anyway someone that feels there is relatively snug could mic the bore for me. Mine mic's out at 6.27mm on the adapter threaded bore side. Also if anyone is interested in an a solid 1 piece or split front back piece vent system for a dual setup with these let me know I built one in CADD. Its designed to use a single 40mm fan on top and dual 15mm fans on the back underside. The smaller holes on the top back is for the wires to go through.

Until I can get back to trying to make the adapter block snug I went back to my stock heads. I followed the instructions for assembly. If I tighten the adapter snug to the heater block its not wobble but then I started getting material jambs after printing for 30 minutes. Thats what got me started building this cooling system. If I can get these to work I had planned on revamping the cooling duct to include a mount for a bltouch bed leveler.

Screen Shot 2018-04-25 at 6.14.23 PM.jpeg

Screen Shot 2018-04-25 at 6.14.37 PM.jpeg

trae@greenlee.cc
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Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:42 am

FreedomRules wrote:Do any of your adapter blocks seem excessively loose thread wise. Between the copper block and the titanium break its super solid and tight but between the adapter block and the titanium break its loose.

its a standard M7x1 tap,if its wiggling then its not tight yet.
The heat break must be fully threaded into the heat-sink and hand tightened. If it doesn't stay tight then put more torque on it when tightening it you just dont want to go crazy or you may bend at the thin section of the heatbreak.

If this junction is not tight you will get jams.
Last edited by trae@greenlee.cc on Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

trae@greenlee.cc
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Joined: Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:31 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby trae@greenlee.cc » Thu Apr 26, 2018 12:45 am

btw is that a push pull fan configuration on your cooling duct?

mb300sd
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Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:22 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby mb300sd » Thu Apr 26, 2018 4:05 am

Iamkar33m wrote:Due to popular request, here are the STL files for my cooling design. I do not have a thingiverse account, otherwise I'd post it up there.

Beware that after running this for a couple months, a few issues have surfaced:

1) The heatblocks melt the tip of the blower air diverters, it doesn't touch but it's close enough to deform PLA.
2) While doing a large print (most of the print bed area), the blowers struck the printbed cable chain (breaking the bracket).

Both these issues can probably be resolved by printing in a higher temp/durable material (ABS or PETG or Nylon). Though the blowers hitting the cable chain is probably not a good thing... just be mindful of builds that get close to the rear right area of the bed.

Best,
Kareem


Did the full surround nozzle in your other post not work out? I liked the look of that one because I'm currently having issues with overhangs on the opposite side of where my fan is. Sticking an extra 40mm fan on the bed with glue stick behind my parts is solving the issue, but obviously a temporary solution and only for small parts.

Iamkar33m
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Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Iamkar33m » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:28 am

mb300sd wrote:Did the full surround nozzle in your other post not work out? I liked the look of that one because I'm currently having issues with overhangs on the opposite side of where my fan is. Sticking an extra 40mm fan on the bed with glue stick behind my parts is solving the issue, but obviously a temporary solution and only for small parts.


The full-surround design did not work out, it either sat too low and crashed into the model or sat too close to the heatblock and melted. I could not get it setup in a way that the air coming out of the donuts hit the tip of the nozzle. That's why I scrapped it and went with this design instead. I may go back and retry the full-surround if I have some free time.

FreedomRules
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:34 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby FreedomRules » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:26 pm

trae@greenlee.cc wrote:btw is that a push pull fan configuration on your cooling duct?


Yes it is. I printed it with Peek for higher temps but since I had the loose head never used it. My initial plan was to cut a piece of Thermo-Tec barrier or ZircoFlex to divert the heat that I've used for some race engine applications. If that melted which I'd find highly unlikely I was going to make a mold and cast it out of aluminum. I've also thought about just building my own adapter block and make them water cooled with a Glycol coolant radiator mounted under the printer with a fan.

mb300sd
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:22 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby mb300sd » Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:22 pm

Iamkar33m wrote:
mb300sd wrote:Did the full surround nozzle in your other post not work out? I liked the look of that one because I'm currently having issues with overhangs on the opposite side of where my fan is. Sticking an extra 40mm fan on the bed with glue stick behind my parts is solving the issue, but obviously a temporary solution and only for small parts.


The full-surround design did not work out, it either sat too low and crashed into the model or sat too close to the heatblock and melted. I could not get it setup in a way that the air coming out of the donuts hit the tip of the nozzle. That's why I scrapped it and went with this design instead. I may go back and retry the full-surround if I have some free time.


Could you please share the STL anyway? I want to try with the slightly longer R3D nozzles and see if it solved my cooling issue.

Iamkar33m
Posts: 83
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:53 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby Iamkar33m » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:31 am

That setup won't work with the stock R3D hotends, the heater core wires stick out the back too far and you won't be able to mount the 5015 fans on the back. Just FYI.

mb300sd
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 7:22 pm

Re: E3D v6 Adaptor

Postby mb300sd » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:13 am

My tube seems to bottom out too far inside the heatsink, does anyone elses? I got the titanium version.

P_20180427_211200.jpg


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