Hot motor

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
artlab
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:02 am

Re: Hot motor

Postby artlab » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:12 pm

I'm going to try the direct board method for testing the new motor, but as a final solution (and to avoid re-wiring the long internal cable), would you recommend I get a female end to the same connector with the old wiring reconfigured to act as a bridge? As long as the connections were strong and the path is correct, I'm not expecting any issues doing this.

Thoughts on the best way to do this? I'd like to avoid soldering at all costs and I'm not too savvy on the technical names for the connector in particular.

Jetguy
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Hot motor

Postby Jetguy » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:08 am

Sorry, I got busy and this message I didn't see until now.
I hope you got this resolved.
would you recommend I get a female end to the same connector with the old wiring reconfigured to act as a bridge?

No, because every connector chain or adapter is another potential failure. My honest take is, that if you cannot configure the stock connector right, what makes me think you can build some adapter and have it be right? Sorry if you find that offensive, I'm just airing my honest thoughts.
I'd like to avoid soldering at all costs

Absolute agree if soldering is not your skill, this is not the ideal first project to start on. The reason is you want ultra reliable connections. Since this moves and vibrates- the last thing you want is mid print failures and odd problems that are hard to troubleshoot because of bad connections. Hence why the answer is just reconfigure the stock connector. I realize this is a learning curve for some of you but that is the most effective fix- to just reuse stock parts and simply unlock and move the pin sockets and wires and plug it in.

I gave testing links and videos, I would hope at least one of them helps. If not, please reply back and I'll attempt my best to help you further.

Jetguy
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Hot motor

Postby Jetguy » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:28 am

Also, I want to make it clear where my frustration is.
I've tried my best to provide both Raise 3D and every owner here the information on this hot motor topic.
The whole reason you are here is because you likely have a hot motor problem from factory and the answers and solutions that Raise 3D has provided to date did not suite your requirements or needs.
Unfortunately, when you start changing motors- Raise 3D has starting pulling the "warranty voids and limited technical support card warnings" as of late. It's not my intent to force or even suggest a user voids his or her warranty- at the same time, there is a bit of a reality check.
These printers (especially N2 and N2 Plus) are so large and heavy, and without regional and local support districts and traveling technicians, you the owner effectively become "the repair person" with hands on the machine. If a cable fails from flexing- that should be warranty. If a user blows a stepper driver while making a mod and slipping with the screwdriver- that is a user caused problem- I could see Raise 3D having a reason to say not covered. Either way, the truth is, you the user are going to have to change the part in many instances. You can already see the wait cycle between when you request something, when a part is shipped, how long it takes to get to you, then trying to install it. For things that are largely commodity items like motors, shaft couplers, fans, and stepper drivers- all easily user replaced parts and sometimes actually lower cost than the shipping of an OEM part once you figure all the total waiting factor and cost in.

So my advice is, complain and complain loudly to Raise 3D. If you don't do this, it does nothing for future buyers of the machine and hopefully forces them to help you with this issue.
At the same time, if you followed information I provided, I will attempt to help you sort it out as best I can.

artlab
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:02 am

Re: Hot motor

Postby artlab » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:15 pm

Hey Jetguy, I know it's been a bit but I finally had time to re-pin and adjusted the voltage. It works now, but the extrusion steps seem to need a change. I did so through the gcode tools in ideamaker for the bondtech on another machine, so I assume I just have to find the right number. This is how a benchy came out, I'm interpreting it as bottlenecking the extrusion with the improper steps during feeding. The motor was super chilly so I may increase the amperage and see if that helps. https://photos.app.goo.gl/pSPXqqA20nPglt062

Edit: Note this is with a setting that works great on other N2s, so it's unique to this motor configuration.

Jetguy
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Hot motor

Postby Jetguy » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:43 pm

Yes, you probably should increase current to at least have the motor warm. Lowering excessively could lead to skipped steps.
In saying that, please do not fall into the trap of adjusting steps per mm when you are skipping steps. Skipping steps is something that simply cannot be allowed to happen on any axis. This is because everything in 3D printing depends on the fact gcode is a distance, the controller reads that and tells the motor to turn a distance. If the motor skips steps and does not turn that distance telling it to spin more means that some time it doesn't skip steps and feeds too much, other times no matter how much more you tell it to spin it just skips more steps.

You have to strike a balance here. Enough motor current to never ever skip steps during a print, but not so much current the motor overheats and begins softening PLA filament in the feed path.

Stanislav
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:05 pm
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Hot motor

Postby Stanislav » Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:14 pm

Hi guys
Аnd I have the same problem with heat motors. with soft material everything ends when the temperature gets high. I have a brand new N1 dual ,but until now I think there was no day without a problem.
I receive technical support from the manufacturer but two months is a problem after a problem.
on the topic: I made a driver adjustment and run a test after finishing I will say to me has an effect and what it is

Stanislav
Stanislav

there is always a smarter man than you

Stanislav
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:05 pm
Location: Bulgaria

Re: Hot motor

Postby Stanislav » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:33 am

After the Vrf correction the motor temperature dropped by 8 degrees this is insufficient , the gear wheel just crushes filament after it reaches a higher temperature.
Stanislav

there is always a smarter man than you

HMBR
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:10 am

Re: Hot motor

Postby HMBR » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:27 am

I'm thinking of exchanging my extruder motor as well. For this I need some help for selectig a motor, that runs cooler than the supplied Minbea one (got the N2 Dual). Because at Vref=0,5 I still have troubles extruding even HT-filaments on long prints (>7hrs) with closed lid.
So far I found these two, but am not sure, which one to pick. The price difference is not as important as reliability.

https://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/ ... ggest=true
https://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/ce/ ... ggest=true

Any advice?
Thanks!

Jetguy
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Hot motor

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:19 pm

While the 1A rated motor is good on paper, that's kind of the issue here, the motors you have now are rated at 1A.
On one hand, good for the driver because 1A is well under the max thermal sustained limit of the driver by a decent margin. You'll overheat the motor before the driver. But it also means medium resistance and inductance to have that kind of a current rating. So as such, replacing the stock motor with a 1A rated motor like you linked is probably a waste of time and money. You are replacing the motor with basically the same thing.

The other motor you linked is 1.68A rated motor will have less inductance and less resistance. That means in terms of heat generation, slightly less prone to generating a lot of heat at the same level of current (100% of max rating). Just understand, if you run a 1A rated motor at 1A current, it will get quite hot. If you run a 1.68A motor at 1.68A, it too will get warm, but not like the 1A rated motor.
At the same time, we really don't want to drive any of these trinamic drivers past 1.5A and really, my personal budget for thermal is about 1.2A. That would in turn mean the 1.68A rated motor is being run at 70% of rated current, and in theory produces 70% of rated torque. It's a long motor, and the way that works is the longer the motor, the more stacks of magnets and plates the rotor has, making it a higher torque motor.

Ideally though, none of those is the best choice. You want a NEMA17 motor, 40-50+mm long, ideal current rating of 1.2 to 1.3A.
That nets you the right inductance, right resistance, and thus less heat generation than the motor you have now.

Jetguy
Posts: 2513
Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am
Location: In a van, down by the river

Re: Hot motor

Postby Jetguy » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:24 pm

Amazon UK, this was the best motor with the right specs and right pluggable connector
https://www.amazon.co.uk/ROKOO-Tow-Phas ... B0771HFPGD

HMBR
Posts: 9
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:10 am

Re: Hot motor

Postby HMBR » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:51 am

Thank you very much for the explanation and the link!


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