Project Bondtech Extruder

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Fri May 12, 2017 4:34 pm

My second BondTec came with a very different Bowden setup from my first. Firstly it uses the existing motor. Does this mean that esteps will be 140? That sure would simplify things.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

Rogman
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Rogman » Fri May 12, 2017 5:12 pm

yes if its the mini then its 140 steps per.

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Fri May 12, 2017 5:20 pm

Thanks
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

biaggiboy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby biaggiboy » Sat May 13, 2017 4:04 pm

biaggiboy wrote:very helpful thread, thanks to everyone who has contributed. the bondtech upgrade is great and has been working really good except one little issue. when the printer does small gap fills on a part the extruder tends to click/skip. this also happens when printing small circumference circles like pins or pegs to conjoin two parts. could this be from retraction setting, stepper motor to hot, stepper driver voltage to low, or even the gears to tight on the filament. ill be checking to see if the motor is getting to hot or the tension is to tight on the filament soon. I just need to wait for assistance, me being a quadriplegic requires me to rely on others to do anything physical with the hardware. just wanted to see if anyone else had this issue or could diagnose the issue from me describing it. any help is greatly appreciated


could really use some help with this. ive checked the motor and it doesn't get too hot

cyberplourin
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby cyberplourin » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:07 am

Hi,
thanks for this test and bondtech review.
Did you try with ninjaflex ?

Rogman
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Rogman » Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:28 pm

biaggiboy,

I have had the same issue and when it happens I usually have fixed the problem by completely shutting off retraction and jumping my x/y TRAVEL speed up by 20mm/sec. just something to try. :)

zenway9
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby zenway9 » Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:17 pm

Trhuster,

Can you please help me out? I just upgraded my Dual N2 Plus to Bondtech extruders and the Z axis will not adjust. I changed the Esteps in my Gcode, but no luck. Do you have any suggestions?

EldRick
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Bondtech upgrade - motors don't run

Postby EldRick » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:00 pm

Help! I just got the BT upgrade dual kit physically installed on my new N2 Dual, but can't get the motors to run.
I switched one of the cables as described in their video, and plugged it in to check the direction and which motor it was. I went to the utilities menu to feed the extruder, but I could not get the motor to run at all. In fact, neither motor cable will run either of the BT motors, and now won't even make one of the original extruder motors run.
I was quite careful to have everything off while working on the machine, and don't see where I could have screwed anything up - is there a firmware block that won't let me run the extruder if the filament is not hot?
Last edited by EldRick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:28 pm

For Martin:
I suggest that you extend the lever tips above the gear body as in the last iteration of the direct drive. It is now rather difficult to get a good grip to press against the spring tension to feed the filament in and out. Secondly, it is harder to get the spring tensioner screws into their holes; thus compounding the the problem with the levers. It used to be quite easy to position and thread the screws, but now it is harder.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:13 am

If the motor is not wired correctly it won't run.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
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Monoprice Maker Select v2

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:15 am

" is there a firmware block that won't let me run the extruder if the filament is not hot?"
Yes, the extruders must be above 170C on stock firmware. This prevents cold extrusion.

EldRick
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby EldRick » Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:12 am

Yep - I finally puzzled that out - it's a Marlin safety feature. Thanks for the suggestions.

BTW, the installation video is confused about the Dual-extruder kit. At least on my new N2 Dual, it is only necessary to change the wiring at the cable-head for the rear (Right) extruder. The front (Left) motor is fine without any wiring changes.
Last edited by EldRick on Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

swissraise
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby swissraise » Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:12 am

If there's someone who want to upgrade, i would sell mine for good price. With or without the Motors. I upgraded to direct drive

Extruder kit for Raise3D N2 Hybrid (Rev 2)

It is this model: http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits ... ybrid.html

Located in Switzerland near Zürich.

Drop me a message if you are interested
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pearson222
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby pearson222 » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:27 pm

I have the Bondtech Direct Drive installed on my N2 Dual Plus and am having an issue with the right extruder. The right extruder will not load or unload filament or rotate in either direction. When I choose either the unload or load function the motor and gear just rumble but will not rotate. Any ideas? I am stuck.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:31 pm

Classic, you simply have a miswired motor connection. A stepper motor is 4 wires consisting of 2 pairs. If any one wire is broken (not connected) or if the pairs of wires are crossed- thus a miswire- then the motor will not rotate.

Pictures of the exact motor and wiring at that motor are required to help you correct this.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:36 pm

The primary cause of many motor miswiring is that again, wire to pin order in the connector CAN BE DIFFERENT between 2 motors with the identical plug in style connector.
The 2 most common orders in the 6 pin connector are A being one pair and B being the other pair
A space A B space B
However, some motors are
A space B A space B - AKA crossed center pair
It may require that you modify one end or the other of the connector and swap the 2 center pins at either end.

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:48 pm

Video of how to remove wiring from the motor connector and change order https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbIoLPS5OkE

Again, in most cases, as simple as switching the center pair.

Spikeysonic
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Spikeysonic » Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:58 am

This thread is very long... is there a ready to fit all in kit where you dont have to make any parts yourself, just buy it, unbolt the new one then all done sorted?

Also how does it help with duel extrustion in particular with flexible materials like polyflex and ninja flex, the wax like one for casting, hipps, nylon, poly support , PVA , Poly PC and dual extrustion combinatons of the above?

Does it prevent problems like this:

....
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Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:32 pm

is there a ready to fit all in kit where you dont have to make any parts yourself, just buy it, unbolt the new one then all done sorted?


Yes, there has been 2 different choices for some time. http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits/raise3d/
If you want to reuse your existing motor(s) choose the mini version AKA "Hybrid"
This would require you to not only unbolt your existing feeder (because you are not changing the entire extruder system, just the feeder), but also then remove the stock drive gear and install the Bondtech version on your motor. It's still all bolt on.

The new Direct Drive setup is also bolt on, but includes the new smaller motors.

Both systems are complete bolt on and can have every part you need in the kit.
Now you say all sorted- well you have to adjust the stepper drivers to match the setup- and you have to use one of the methods of telling the machine the steps per mm change. But these are well documented.

Also how does it help with duel extrustion in particular with flexible materials like polyflex and ninja flex, the wax like one for casting, hipps, nylon, poly support , PVA , Poly PC and dual extrustion combinatons of the above?


2 things the Bondtech does:
#1 It's lighter, so less deflection of the nozzle towards the center of the bed travel meaning better and easier to get an even first layer height AKA leveling AKA Z-gap because again, the head weighs less by a large margin than stock.
#2 Grips any and all filament better than a stock drive and requires no adjustments to move the motor to account for variations in filament diameter like a stock extruder. This means more consistent extrusion volume and greater force or pressure before skipped steps at the extruder motor.


Does it prevent problems like this:

No, it's not magically going to make basic 3D printing failures of bed adhesion, skipped XY position in a layer, or other basic 3D printing failures. If you cannot print- an extruder change or upgrade is not going to suddenly make you a 3D printing wizard. I'm sorry if this statement offends folks but the cold hard truth is- you can only improve on a good situation. You cannot fix every other problem in 3D printing just by putting a better extruder feeder on a printer. If the root cause of a failure is an extrusion failure- in some cases, yes, this is a fix, but a birds nest of extruded filament means your extruder was feeding.
DSCF1586.JPG


In fact, if you want a breakdown on what is wrong in this picture- here it is:
By viewing the skirt line of extrusion and the PVA support material or raft like structure- the bed or first layer gap was far too great. Simply put, your nozzle basically was so high, it drooled the first layer noodle of skirt on the bed. So then when the raft and support didn't stick, the part shifted when it broke free. Then the layers had nothing to print on and began to birds nest. This is just a very bad example of failing to properly set first layer gap.

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jetdillo
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jetdillo » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:19 am

Has anybody written up a doc or page for how to install the Bondtech Dual-Drive ?
My Dual-Drive Bondtech for the N2 just showed up with the weekend mail and I'm really looking forward to installing it but so far have just come across this:
https://youtu.be/CNZepBI4WbQ
for install instructions.

Thanks!


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