Project Bondtech Extruder

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:57 am

@firesped, I also thought that best will be if this whole box will be metal then there won't be issue with heat in the first place. But if to go with plastic probably best way is to install fan so it will blow directly on the gear. Is there STEP file for this cover, so we can easily modify it or should we redesign whole?

@Tringia I'd be down to CNCing it, if it won't cost as another printer :) I've already invested more money into this printer on top of the original price than needed :)

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:20 am

Before you start modding away have you turned down stepper driver voltage to 0.5v? I use 0.5v at work and 0.6 volt at home and i have no problems with heat or tourqe with PLA and ABS. I have printed many long prints around 25-50 hours mark.

Tringia
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Tringia » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:08 pm

I am new at this, but my bondtech stepper driver is also set to .6v, I did a 12 hour run with ABS last night without an issue. In fact my stepper remained relatively cool as steppers go (I could touch it). I will attach a TC to it next run and monitor temp.

So it seems to me Trhuster is correct.

Although my offer still stands if you need any CNC work done.

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LogicEthos
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby LogicEthos » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:19 pm

I dropped mine to 0.6v yesterday, but got air printing 1 hour in. Not sure why. Gears appeared to have lost traction on the filament. Tugging on the 1Kg reel is heavy. No clogging this time.

I upped the voltage to 0.77v. stepper motor is ~40 deg C. now.

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:33 pm

Trhuster wrote:Before you start modding away have you turned down stepper driver voltage to 0.5v? I use 0.5v at work and 0.6 volt at home and i have no problems with heat or tourqe with PLA and ABS. I have printed many long prints around 25-50 hours mark.


Yep, I've started with 0.6V as described in the manual and filament still melted and stepper didn't have enough of traction. So right extruder in my case requires additional ventilation either way. I suspect it is because power box, or how is it called, does not have any holes in it now, so it won't create additional airflow in the filament area of the printer.

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LogicEthos
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby LogicEthos » Wed Dec 21, 2016 5:41 pm

The PETG print I have been having trouble with the left extruder, has succeeded for the first time.

0.77v
Fan facing the stepper motor (zip tied to the back)
Doors left open.

Tringia
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Tringia » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:55 pm

OK... TC and temperature controller connected... ABS filament (Hatchbox Blue) 110 C bed, 240 C Nozzle, Raise N2 completely closed...

TC (type J) screwed to bondtech extruder motor, utilizing one of the mounting screws...
41 C Start
51 C 30 min
67 C 90 min
69 C 120 min
69 C 3 hours
69 C 4 hours
69 C 5 hours

Print is still going, but from the results I would say its going to stay around 69 C. This temperature should be low enough not to cause a problem with ABS, PETG, and I would say even PLA should be fine.

For you guys having trouble, maybe swap out the motor and or drive. Maybe some of the motors are undersized?

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:01 am

Yep, if I printed with both doors opened it worked with 0.6V but then I had issues that it didn't seem to have enough of force and I always had some weird clogging issues with my right extruder which I primarily use for hard filaments and left is always loaded with TPU kind of filaments.
After I've increased it back to 0.8V all clogging issues were gone and printing was going well, but stepper heated up to 90C with both doors closed, so I've used USB fan and kept doors opened.

Today I've quickly designed very simple fan mount for stepper motor, which I've printed in nylon. Seems to work well, but I still think that bondtech gear box should be made from the metal to deflect the heat or better to mount fan so it will blow on the gear to better remove heat from the problematic area.

Do you know where I can find some CAD file to simplify the job of designing fan mount for bondtech?
Attachments
Stepper Motor Fan mount.stl
(85.34 KiB) Downloaded 12 times
Screen Shot 2016-12-21 at 14.43.33.png

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:51 am

geared stepper motor
http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/components/n ... ratio.html

this is what comes with the QR universal
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firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:42 am

The power box is not the issue causing filament to melt. the motor is getting too hot for PLA, PLA started melting at around 60 degree C. If the ambient temperature inside the machine plus the heat from motor push the filament over that point, It can melt inside the bondtech housing. ABS, Nylon, and PC are high temperature filaments, They won't have this problem as their glass temperature is around 100 degree C. You can't make any of your printer parts out of PLA either, they will deform over time. Simply adding some air flow onto the stepper motor, cools it off enough so this is avoided.

my part, which I posted on thingiverse, extends out the mini board mounting plate to add in a mount socket for another part that you can attach a 35mm fan too.

As far as the part goes, I need to redesign it from the current design. I've been following principles located on this site, http://www.overclockers.com/waterblock- ... -drawings/

currently the 3D printed part has a pipe going through it.

Due to the size, the design is probably going to have to be changed to a solid block with a hole drilled through the center with allen bolts sealing both ends. It will so need taps in on the upper and lower ends to allow for fittings to be put in place. currently they sell fittings for G 1/4 inch. also the mounting system I designed for the board requires a hole in each corner. to screw it into place.
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Tringia
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Tringia » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:20 pm

Firesped / Flexrc,

I am having a hard time understanding why your motors are running so much hotter than mine. Would it not be easier to spec out another motor, than go through the trouble of adding a water block, reservoir and pump.

Maybe a higher torque model, (see link below for Minebea Nema 17 list). My motor is a 17PM-K342BN08CN which has 310mNm of torque, the next one up is a 17PM-K442B which has 500 mNm at the same 0.9A. I do not know all the details, but our drives should be able to run these higher torque motors.

Details in attached PDF

[url]http://www.nmb-minebea.de/motors/part-numbers/Hybrid-Stepper-Nema-17?data[pg]=12&data[133!]=17[/url]
Attachments
17PM-K.pdf
(677.97 KiB) Downloaded 24 times

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:20 pm

the water bloc has nothing to do with the motors. the water bloc is for the actual steppers, to hyper cool them and get the printer to run better. I issues with heat were mostly during the summer. my printer is in an workshop that is not insulated nor has any cooling/heating. so when it hits 100+ F outside, I can't print PLA.
RL name: Michael Nolen
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Tringia
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Tringia » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:50 pm

Firesped,
OK, now I understand your issue!
In that case, a water cooling system would be the least expensive method. Like a PC cooling system.

But the issue that Flexrc and LogicEthos are experiencing seems stepper related.

brolly759
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby brolly759 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:51 am

Hi all! So I purchased and installed a Bondtech extruder for my N1. After some unsuccessful prints, I decided to print a benchy and look towards the community for help. I am using PLA and I took a screenshot of all my settings. I added "M92 E140" to the GCode and thats it, no firmware or voltage tweaking.

My Start GCode:
G21
G90
M82
M107
G28 X0 Y0
G28 Z0
G1 Z15.0 F{travel_speed}
G92 E0
G1 F140 E29
G1 X20 Y0 F140 E30
G92 E0
M92 E140
G1 F{travel_speed}
M117 Printing...


My End GCode:
M104 S0
M140 S0
G91
G1 E-1 F300
G1 Z+0.5 E-5 X-20 Y-20 F9000.00
G28 X0 Y0
M84
G90


2016-12-22_19-46-11.png
20161222_193621.jpg
20161222_193604.jpg
20161222_193542.jpg
20161222_193535.jpg

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:33 am

Seems like heat realated to me. Try lower hotend temp to 190c. Don't use the top cover an leave the door open, more cooling is better. If you have a part cooling fan put it at 100%.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:53 pm

I had the melted filament inside the housing. the last time i printed my housing, I printed off 2, just in case it happened again.
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lami3d
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby lami3d » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:42 pm

Hello,

i now can print again...

i was trying firespeed firmware 1.1.6Hmini (i have 2 mini) and i noticed i had to raise the flowrate to more than 130% to get good layer adhesion (i had exatcly the same issue i have read in a post when the outside shell is not stuck well to the inside shell...). i found it strange...

So, i reload f1.1.1 and add M92 E140 in the gcode and set flowrate to 100% and now, i'm extruding too much...

So am i missing something or is there an issue ? i thought that : 1.1.1 + M92 E140 = 1.1.6 but the results i had are not in this sense... i add to force flowrate with 1.1.6.

Thanks for your help

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:25 pm

the different firmware are upgrades to how various functions work. so 1.1.1 + M92 E140 does not equal 1.1.6. A lot of the firmware revisions are ultimately attempts to get the TRP to work right. and truthfully, none of these firmware should even be 1.1 as marlin 1.1.0 is completely different and more streamlined code. But that is beside the point.

Let me play with the firmware a little bit as I found a major issue if it effects anything, also a new way to try to do the hybrid that does not need extra code.
RL name: Michael Nolen
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firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:47 pm

It seems to be functioning but I don't know if it will work. likely every reference to e axis needs code modified to reference the correct extruder.

Increasing NUM_AXIS to 5, lets a second E_AXIS be held. However, when I tried using M92, it cleared out the stored value. So I needed to modify M92 to be able to store different E_AXIS. the current RC firmware has this. Our firmware does not. But it brings up the next issue. If our firmware is not designed to handle 5 axis aka 2 extruder axis for M92, then likely everything else will not handle it either. rather then recoding the entire firmware to support this, it is likely easier to make the current RC work with our printer. Note the current RC uses half the size in storage space and far less memory.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
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flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:49 am

I've been testing this fan adapter I've showed and it seems to help with PLA issue I've had, so I didn't experience melted filament inside of the housing so far.

On the other hand, I'm having hard time to find good settings for PETG (HDGlass) for the right extruder, I'm already at 10mm retraction with 220C and it is still oozing. I've tried to reduce temperature but it does not seem to help much, just at some point layers don't stick to each other. Any ideas? Does anybody print this filament with right extruder?


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