Project Bondtech Extruder

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:25 am

Installation went smooth and fast. The only issue was same as GJohns had and after a bit of trying to understand his solution, I was able to figure it out and now good to go. Glad to finally get rid of very problematic original Raise3D filament feeding system, hopefully it will work well so I can switch my other printers as well.

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:54 am

I don't have much luck with right bowden extruder, it does not seem enough of force to push filament well enough, so it always clogs inside of the nozzle.

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:17 am

flexrc wrote:I don't have much luck with right bowden extruder, it does not seem enough of force to push filament well enough, so it always clogs inside of the nozzle.


What filament, temp, speed ect do you use? I have not printed alot with bowden side but when i have it works ok. What voltage do you use for your stepper drivers?

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:13 pm

Trhuster wrote:
flexrc wrote:I don't have much luck with right bowden extruder, it does not seem enough of force to push filament well enough, so it always clogs inside of the nozzle.


What filament, temp, speed ect do you use? I have not printed alot with bowden side but when i have it works ok. What voltage do you use for your stepper drivers?


I've increased distance from the nozzle to the glass to 0.20mm and it seems to work with PLA min at 215C. I usually set nozzle closer to the glass so it will stick a bit better. The voltage stepper drivers are set to 0.6V as recommended, perhaps I have to try to increase it a little bit?

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 am

I was testing long print with right bowden extruder and it clogged in the middle on the print. I've checked and it seems that either PLA melted in the motor gear or somehow deformed, hard to say. After that I've tried to print more and had issues that it starts to print but then it does not seem to have enough of force to push filament, so I've tried to increase stepper motor voltage back to 0.8V and now I can see that motor pushes filament much better at the places where it stuck before and it just keeps going now, but motor becomes very hot. I'm wondering if you know about any solution which can work for cooling stepper motor in N2? Will you use passive heat sink or fan and where to connect fan?

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:26 am

There is no need to worry about the stepper motors. Otherwise, what do you think would happen with the motors if you print high temperature materials like ABS or PC in a closed chamber?
Btw., I'm also using a little bit higher reference voltage for the motors, as I realized it is more robust regarding filament irregularities...

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:30 pm

socke wrote:There is no need to worry about the stepper motors. Otherwise, what do you think would happen with the motors if you print high temperature materials like ABS or PC in a closed chamber?
Btw., I'm also using a little bit higher reference voltage for the motors, as I realized it is more robust regarding filament irregularities...

Yes, probably won't be any issues with nylon, PC kind of filaments. But for PLA it seems to require to have all printer doors opened for it to complete the build, I was able to finish one long print with PLA when all doors were opened and then decided to try to close them and test and filament stuck in the gear again. I guess too hot?

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LogicEthos
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby LogicEthos » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:50 pm

Image

I have recently switched to using PETG, which is my new favourite filament. But sometimes this happens, often an hour or so into the print.
I have tried increasing the temperature. The nozzle is not blocked. If I cut away the buckled filament, and reload it, it's fine. Tightening the thumb screw doesn't help. I have tied another brand of PETG, and it was the same.

Any ideas?

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:50 am

LogicEthos wrote:Image

I have recently switched to using PETG, which is my new favourite filament. But sometimes this happens, often an hour or so into the print.
I have tried increasing the temperature. The nozzle is not blocked. If I cut away the buckled filament, and reload it, it's fine. Tightening the thumb screw doesn't help. I have tied another brand of PETG, and it was the same.

Any ideas?


Did you check temperature of stepper motor? Mine were around 80C.

So funny story about this second long print I've described in my previous comment. It turns out that filament melted inside of the hole of the plastic box and it is a disaster, I basically had to drill a new hole and this time I've made it a bit bigger than filament diameter with hope that it will help to prevent in the future, but it let me wonder from which kind of plastic this box is made?

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LogicEthos
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby LogicEthos » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:58 am

flexrc wrote:Did you check temperature of stepper motor? Mine were around 80C.


Too hot to handle comfortably, which surprised me.

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:03 am

LogicEthos wrote:
flexrc wrote:Did you check temperature of stepper motor? Mine were around 80C.


Too hot to handle comfortably, which surprised me.


Did you set your stepper motor driver to 0.6V?

I had it set before to 0.6V but it still melted PLA so I've brought it back to 0.8V and put some USB fan inside of the case and now it prints. I think that need to modify design of the bondtech box to allow installation of the fan or/and need to buy some heatsink for stepper motor. Well it probably only matters for filaments like PETG and PLA.
I'm just not sure where to connect extra fans inside of the printer?

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Trhuster
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Trhuster » Fri Dec 16, 2016 9:15 am

Guys, if stepper motor gets to hot heat will transfers from the driveshaft to the drivegear and soften the plastic causing the problems in the picture above.

I print with PLA on 3 differenet printers almost every day with PLA and i never get any problems after tuning down voltage to 0.6 volt. I even tried 0.5 volt and still have plenty off tourqe so if motor is still to hot at 0.6 volt try 0.5 volt instead. This is for left direct drive extruder.

sylus
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby sylus » Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:45 pm

Having the same problem,set the stepper to 0.6V fixed the issue.
If you do so ,i recommend you to check again and also check your multi meter (measure with another)

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LogicEthos
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby LogicEthos » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:49 pm

Trhuster wrote:Guys, if stepper motor gets to hot heat will transfers from the driveshaft to the drivegear and soften the plastic causing the problems in the picture above.


Yep, I realised that as I was putting it back together. I put a fan on the back of the stepper motor, and left the lid off, and it printed fine. 8-)

Jetguy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Jetguy » Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:13 pm

I would NOT run a USB 5V fan. For all the same reasons I said don't power a camera with the USB ports, don't power anything other than a flash drive. viewtopic.php?f=2&p=10930#p10900
flexrc wrote: I'm just not sure where to connect extra fans inside of the printer? and "which kind of plastic this box is made?"

Taken straight from the Bondtech webpage, "Housing parts on printhead precision SLS printed in nylon for strength, precision and low weight".

The fan connection points:
At the extruder head, there is one extra and completely unused 12V constant on header near the ribbon cable.
head breakout2.jpg

On the mainboard, there are 3 12V constant on sockets that the blower and LED strips plug into.
Otherwise, there is also 2 header pins labeled 12V
mainboard power diagram.jpg

Finally, if you buy 24V fans, you can run them straight off the PSU.
raise3d nseriesdiagram.jpg

flexrc
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby flexrc » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:22 pm

Trhuster wrote:Guys, if stepper motor gets to hot heat will transfers from the driveshaft to the drivegear and soften the plastic causing the problems in the picture above.

I print with PLA on 3 differenet printers almost every day with PLA and i never get any problems after tuning down voltage to 0.6 volt. I even tried 0.5 volt and still have plenty off tourqe so if motor is still to hot at 0.6 volt try 0.5 volt instead. This is for left direct drive extruder.


I've noticed that air circulation is better in the area of left extruder than in filaments area, newer versions of N2 don't have cutouts in electrical box as shown in bondtech assembly guide. I think that probably tourqe is better on the left side because distance filament should go is shorter. I've basically only noticed issues when I started to use right extruder.


Jetguy wrote: "Housing parts on printhead precision SLS printed in nylon for strength, precision and low weight".

Somehow it felt like ABS when hand I drilled a hole, but I'm not an expert and it was in the outside part of the box

Jetguy wrote:The fan connection points

Thanks a lot for the pictures, they help a lot! Now I have to figure out how to better mount fans.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:40 am

This was a problem I faced. I had to reprint my bondtech housing every time it happened. I made a custom board cover part and mounted a fan off the back of it that will blow air onto the extruder. I also put kapton tape on the front of the motor and lined the back of the bondtech housing. Once you have had to drill it, it won't work right.

you want your housing either in nylon or polycarbonite.

also of note, you need to print this part in abs, nylon or polycarbonite. I originally printed it in PLA and it melted/deformed. Still worked though.

I uploaded it to thingiverse here. http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1975653

The alternate solution I have thought able is replacing the stock motor on the direct drive with the geared motor. But it will take rewiring it. my thoughts are that the geared motor would not put the motor heat onto the drive shaft. Not sure if the current designed housing will work with a geared motor.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

checktest
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby checktest » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:53 pm

+1 to lowering your voltage to 0.6V. However, I put these (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B010D ... UTF8&psc=1) on all my steppers to help further dissipate heat.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:15 am

stepper heat effects different out comes. they cause the motors to skip when they overheat. I'm not sure how to fix the air flow issue. technically we need air blowing straight down into the steppers, not across them. Air blowing across the steppers like it does is picking up heat, so it is less effective down the line. I've come up with a water bloc but I need to have it CnC. 3D printing it is not an option due to unknown effects of heat/water on the plastic parts of the filament. Essentially, I made the part and it leaked. The leak was internal to the part. Not sure who to goto for getting something like this done that won't cost me an arm and a leg.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

Tringia
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby Tringia » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:53 pm

Firesped,
I have a machine shop, with a 4 axis Milltronics CNC, if you send me the drawing I will give it a look. Best approach will be to print it first for sizing, then we can machine it out of aluminum.


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