Project Bondtech Extruder

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
lami3d
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby lami3d » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:33 pm

photoholic wrote:I guess I went through almost everything but don't get it. Do I need another firmware to print dual or not? Is this firmware form Raise3D or is that some sort of hack?

(meanwhile the directdrive got stuck after 2h of printing... motor is burning hot damn... not sure if I'm already regreting this upgrade)

No, you can't :mrgreen:

Did you lower the voltage to 0.6V ? If yes (and it seems that some users have the issue and some not):
- what material do you print ? with cover or not ? bed temperature ?

you need to cool it if it's not good with PLA without the cover... heatsink or heatsink + fan (see firesped design on page 32 of this topic)
i had to do that on my frist N2+ but not for the moment on my N2 (that print a 250% scaled celtic skulll during 80h with colorfabb PLA)
Image

I think on the original conf the big metal support parts acts as an heatsink... so i think it's a good thing to cool the motor and in all case (i will do on my N2 soon) BUT i will loose 3/4 cm on Y direction (coorect it in the software to prevent from uploading a file that will hurt the printer and don't exceed 270mm with the tool menu
Last edited by lami3d on Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

photoholic
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby photoholic » Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:37 pm

thanks lami3d... wow I missed that somehow... will check the voltage... hope I don't have to attach a fan like you did...

damn... I actually thought this whole Bondtech-stuff was a little bit further than eary-adopter-stage... :)

lami3d
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby lami3d » Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:01 pm

i think you will be forced to add it on the bowden that have more retractions
it's good for motors servie life limits and good for elastic filament but the best would be to find a smaller motor to fit the cooling without loosing any place
(i saw jetguy had posted a picture of bondtech dual direct drive extruder tests with 2 small motors mounted opposite to each other, that will be perfect!)

good luck

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:48 pm

I'm hoping for that new bondtech unit myself. I just picked up a monoprice maker select v2 and I am gonna starter working on a repetier firmware.
RL name: Michael Nolen

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:48 am

@photoholic:
I can tell you only from my point of view: The Bondtech extruders are the best of the best you can get for money - no early adopter junk!
However, with the current Bondtech Mini extruder it may take a little effort to make dual extrusion working (a custom firmware could be one possible way), if you use different extruders with different E steps. The latest BMG extruder could solve that issue.
I decided to not go with dual extruders (at least with this setup) because of other issues like oozing (mixing the 2 materials), aligning the extruders...
For me, I found it is just not worth the effort.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:37 pm

as nice as dual extruders sound, without a very complicated and probably exspensive setup, it is not really practical imo. the second hotend has too much chance to hit the print due to being misaligned. or the first hotend may do it on material printed from the first. given the options out there for printing in multiple colors, I would go with a mosaic palette, i need to get one eventually. a second extruder would be more reserved for special support materials.

ultimately I would want a hotend that could retract and deloy the hotends but I don't know if that is possible on this machine without some major changes. It may take a complete replacement of the extruder carriage block.
RL name: Michael Nolen

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:55 pm

I think, the most practical way for dual extrusion (I mean with different materials, not just different colors) would be a dual X axis machine...
But the alignment issue remains in that case. Alternatively, for some limited use this could be also interesting:
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1926351
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1680034
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2027832
But from others I know, this can also be nerve-racking - at least with a hotend like the Raise3D printers using.

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:12 pm

you would need to switch the printer over to bowden to use those and replace the PTFE feedtube to a peak feedtube. those are copying what the Prometheus is doing. part of the prometheus design was to use a special feedtube to make sure the filament was reload-able. I would also redesign the top plate of the printer so the extruder motors can be mounted there. I would also likely install filament motion sensors right after the extruder motors. It would certainly cut down on carriage weight.
RL name: Michael Nolen

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:27 pm

Maybe this are copies, but the guys from Prometheus were definitely not the first doing this!
In my opinion a low friction hotend is the critical point, either it should be PTFE (may or may not work) or it should have a coating like that from Micro Swiss. I'm aware that a stainless steel hotend like ours will not work for this purpose.
Also a good cooling is important, maybe water cooling...

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jerteach
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby jerteach » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:07 pm

Trhuster wrote:I have already done a few prints and result so far is extremley positive. No slipping no stepper motor clicking, it pulls so hard when i loading filament that i can't make the stepper to click or slip! This is with Z-ABS.




Great study Trhuster. I am at the point with my new N2 where it has the slipping and stepper motor clicking above print speeds of 50 mm/s using stock Raise3D filament and a stock brand new machine.

You might be interested in commenting on my threads below since it sounds like you went through a similar process, however I will not be getting a MOD's anytime soon, so I have to work with what I have.

Filament diameter causing extruder slipping? http://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1660

and

Re: Spool Holder for N2 http://forum.raise3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1053&p=13939#p13900
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
Train: Rugby Players and Recurrent Neural Networks
Twitter: @rocksetta https://twitter.com/rocksetta

photoholic
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby photoholic » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:13 am

Well a little update... after setting the voltage of the two extruder motors to 0.6 V printing with one extruder is working great.

Although I'm still asking myself what difference this whole Bondtech-upgrade finally made... I was able to print dual color with the original setup... I was able to print good quality ABS and PLA flawless... I thought I might be able to print Ninjaflex, Gold-PLA, Wood-PLA and anything with the Bondtech (all of them failed > not sticking to bed (Wood and Gold), not extruding (Ninjaflex) etc...)... and now I'm sitting here... a few dollars less in pocket... few parameters more in the slicer to take care of... no dualcolor-feature anymore... well... not so happy at all...

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:58 am

I can only speak for myself: I was not able to print PETG without the Bondtech also had issues with some PLA filaments...
I'm curious, but why did you upgrade if you were happy with the stock setup?

photoholic
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby photoholic » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:04 am

I thought everything would be better ;) The whole world ;) Didn't happen...

socke
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby socke » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:33 am

:D
Regarding the flex material: I didn't test it by myself, but others reported it works very well. Maybe the key is, how strong you tightened the thumb screw?

photoholic
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby photoholic » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:43 am

thanks socke... you're probably right... will try that... and I will level the bed again and go slightely below 0.2... would hate it to put hairspray or glue on the bed...

lami3d
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby lami3d » Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:53 pm

i'm sure you can print nearly everything with this setup, maybe you need a little bit time

here are some materials that work without any issue
Benchies2.png



i'm printing a new fleet with filaflex, semiflex, ngen flex... PLA Raise, Colorfabb, Neofil, Ngen, woodfill bamboofill and bronzefill, formfutura titanX, Taulman bridge, ptcpe, 645, 618. that only settings that really needs to be adjusted each time are the temperatures, speeds and retraction
Attachments
2.jpg

photoholic
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby photoholic » Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:26 pm

wow... promising thanks... is there a cool list with those settings anywhere ;)?

firesped
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby firesped » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:09 pm

working on upgrading my trinus right now. all axis are on linear drive shafts so it produces excelent quality. but it can't go fast. The biggest issue is the hotend, which they claimed was going to be all metal, but it is not. It is a very compact extruder with a PTFE lining in the throat tube down to the nozzle.

I'm looking at pulling the Bondtech QR Universal off my N2. The question therefore became, do i go bowden or Direct. I started looking up some information on it and ran into a thread. hence why I am making this post here.

Be sure to use a good hotend that is well known to work with a Bowden extruder (j-head from hotends.com work well for Tantillus). Be sure to use a Bowden tube that is large enough that is offers little to no friction (1/8" for 3mm as 1/8" is 3.15mm) and be sure to check your filament goes through the tube as tubing is not made to have the inside diameter perfect and could have tight spots even if rated at 3.15mm. You will need to re-learn a bit since Bowdens require faster travel speeds, longer retracts and the most important is faster retracts.

Last thing is if your machine has a moving bed then you will still get ripples unless you are able to make it a lot lighter.


This is the information that made me wonder. The hybrid style seems to have a major issue if the bowden requires faster travel speeds. I only played with it a little bit due to the wipe wall issues. those may be fixed now. I am hoping that the new dual extruder martin is working on works out. The other option I could think of is to convert both extruders to bowden and get maximum head weight reduction. the extruder would be replaced with quick connects to attach the PTFE tubing. new profiles would need to be calibrated for pure bowden printing.

back to the trinus, this thing just has problems. people want to print high temperature materials with a printer not designed to print high temperature materials. Kodama is a 6 man operation (spread out a crossed the world, at least one IT is based in Japan) that is reselling Panowin's F1 printer as the trinus. Kodama doesn't have any access to hardware or software either. the PSU that came with it does not meet the needs of the printer. I'm working on that solution right now for mine be using a 12V 30A 360W Universal Regulated Switching Power Supply for 3D Printer and a couple of MOSFETs to provide the power for the hotbed and extruder of secondary 12v rails.

If I want to upgrade the hotend, I need to upgrade the motion controller due to the closed nature of the motion controller that comes with it. Since I want this thing to print the best i can, i am looking at Panucatt's Azteeg X5 GT 32bit Motion Controller, with all the parts for it, it is a good sized chunk investment.

I'm not sure what exactly is compatible with the bondtech QR universal. the E3D-v6 looks like one option but I'd like to also know what else there is. One of my biggest issues will be making the mount for the bondtech, to get it aligned in the same spot as the current extruder.
RL name: Michael Nolen

biaggiboy
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby biaggiboy » Fri May 12, 2017 2:16 pm

very helpful thread, thanks to everyone who has contributed. the bondtech upgrade is great and has been working really good except one little issue. when the printer does small gap fills on a part the extruder tends to click/skip. this also happens when printing small circumference circles like pins or pegs to conjoin two parts. could this be from retraction setting, stepper motor to hot, stepper driver voltage to low, or even the gears to tight on the filament. ill be checking to see if the motor is getting to hot or the tension is to tight on the filament soon. I just need to wait for assistance, me being a quadriplegic requires me to rely on others to do anything physical with the hardware. just wanted to see if anyone else had this issue or could diagnose the issue from me describing it. any help is greatly appreciated

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JohnSays
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Re: Project Bondtech Extruder

Postby JohnSays » Fri May 12, 2017 4:33 pm

Regarding the flex materials. I found that there was too much drag on the spool to reliably print flex. I was using NijaFlex. I had to unspool to the floor the amount I thought I would need to print with and then print. otherwise there was too much pull and thus stretch on the flex.
- John
Raise3D N2 Dual, V2 nozzles, Bondtech hybrid mod, and adjustable table


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