Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

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Jetguy
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Jetguy » Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:16 pm

Sorry, I'm not trying to be unhelpful, I just have a hard time with your conclusion.
reduced the retract from 1.5mm to 1.0mm. This way I could complete the prints. However, this can't be a permanent solution.

#1 I only have been using 1mm retraction for a very long time with Raise 3D printers. Not because of jams but just that some early testing with the Mosaic palette software way back only worked with a limited retract distance. I never needed to change it after that. That was true for BMG and the mini since I have multiple printers with both solutions. I find no such correlation to a BMG specific issue.

#2 Longer retraction of like 6-10mm OK, could understand jams, 1-2mm shouldn't be causing jams and indicates a hotend issue, not a feeder specific issue.

I think you ran into a coincidence here that you changed the feeder and just happened to have an issue at the same time.
1.5mm should not be causing jams, not in my experience and moving to 1mm fixing it, I would not consider that BMG specific or an indication at all. I would consider that maybe you had some dirt or fiber or burned filament check ball effect in the cone of the nozzle and the only way to remove that is cold pull filament cleanouts, changing the nozzle, or sometimes the classic burnout (high temp method with the nozzle removed).

socke
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby socke » Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:05 pm

Jetguy wrote:Sorry, I'm not trying to be unhelpful, I just have a hard time with your conclusion.

No need to sorry. But I didn't state this as conclusion, I just tried to say what I've observed. I'm also aware, that there may be no causality between the jams and the BMG.
However, thanks for your input! I consider to swap the nozzle and/or hotend later. And also thanks for sharing your settings, this is helpful to know!

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jmp
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby jmp » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:52 pm

socke wrote:Maybe I have to change the retract speed, too? It is set to 30 mm/s, currently.


If it were me I would see if 20mm/s is better.
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socke
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby socke » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:51 am

Yes, in the meantime I found that 20mm/s seems to work better.

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JohnSays
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby JohnSays » Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:23 pm

Look back at my posts on the same subject. I solved it. I found that the motors were getting way too hot with the cover closed during ABS printing. I have not had a clog since I simply started venting the air temperature down below 55C.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

socke
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby socke » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:19 am

No this isn't the same issue I think. Motor was not even handwarm, cover was always left open and I was printing eSun PLA+.
Meanwhile I think the issue is more related to my print object and hotend or object cooling. My object needed a really large number of retracts with only very short tracks of extrusion between. Other, 'normal' objects coming out nicely. But I need to do some more tests.
I already swapped the hotend, also used brand new nozzles, so I can exclude that this is an issue of one specific nozzle or hotend.
Btw: Even if I had a bumpy start with the BMG, so far I really like it!

Jetguy
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:07 pm

Just a note and I asked for Bondtech to say this, I have found 2 of the recently purchased BMG style extruders (a single lefthand flip and the dual Raise 3D specific version we are discussing) had the actual mini style hobbed gear slightly loose on the jackshaft. In other words the tiny setscrew was loose. It takes a really good non-worn hex key because that screw is so short you there is no depth of the hex key to bite in.
What I saw was, the gear can rock on the shaft (the shaft has a flat for the setscrew to better mate with). Eventually, a loose setscrew will rock back and forth and damage the shaft. Not to mention, the entire time, you have backlash and lost distance.

Just saying, check your gear. Bondtech stated they are using thread locker to prevent this and should be factory tight but again I found 2 of my own personal brand new units had this setscrew is loose so again, please check. Better to check and find it tight than to not check and assume it is good.
Last edited by Jetguy on Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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JohnSays
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby JohnSays » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:11 pm

Yes, I found it loose on one of my 4 shafts too.
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

Jetguy
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Jetguy » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:55 pm

The setscrew in question is the same as shown- it's just not on the motor shaft in the BMG but the geared shaft. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7A1ME ... NfNms/view
Drivegear setscrew.jpg

As seen in the BMG Dual extruder. I had to use a tiny flat tip screw driver to rotate the shaft until the setscrew was visible.
Drivegear setscrew2.jpg

In fact, on this early unit i had been using up until I recently bought that "never installed" BMG dual from another user and found that both drive gears had loose set screws and I had been printing with this until a short time ago.
Video shot just minutes ago.
https://youtu.be/CDC8qogG0QY

Again, be sure to check both sides of the unit for dual extruders.

firesped
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby firesped » Thu Aug 17, 2017 6:04 am

I want to make sure this is noted. remove the first link of the cable chain to reduce the stress on the cable for the extruder board.

On a side note, I have to replace my left hotend, I'm pretty sure at this point the thing actually melted down but it is all wrapped up in insulation still. I removed some filament today and some of it got stuck in the coldend. so I had to remove the hotend to clear it. I'm getting inconsistent extrusion from the hotend.
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socke
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby socke » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:06 pm

OK, I finally solved my issue:
My jams came from a too strong object cooling, so it seems sometimes the filament already hardened in the nozzle. It happened by loading a wrong factory file.
However, the BMG runs like a clockwork now . :-)

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JohnSays
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby JohnSays » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:06 pm

As a hope factor for anyone still having a struggle with the new BMG: I have been very successfully printing ABS with HIPS support, eSun ABS+, and some Polymaker PLA+ on two N2s. I keep them printing as close to 24/7 as I can. Once I got the support extruder calibrated into Simplify3D, these extruders have printed better than even the earlier Bondtec extruders did. I think nothing of loading up a print with dissolvable support now. My biggest problem is keeping enough filament at the ready -- it seems to come and go from market. As a note on that: I contacted eSun directly and found that it is possible to order 3 Kg rolls directly from them. It comes out to about $13/Kg with shipping, but that's with a quantity of 40 3Kg rolls -- way too much for my burgeoning business(g).
- John
2 Raise3D N2 Duals, V2 nozzles, Bondtech BMGs, adjustable table, Panucatt SD2224 drivers

Geckospot Nixie
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Geckospot Nixie » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:38 pm

I thought I would share my experience and thoughts on the Bondtech BMG upgrade!
First of all outstanding!
This extruder is extreme improvement over Raise3D’s.
Just from the fact of weight and low ringing!

I got my N2 in Aug. 2017 so I have not done as much print as some of you here but I have done a good bit.
I did not have a lot of issues with the stock extruder except for the weight even printing slow there was a lot of ringing.
Installation
I had a real hard time getting the motor connector unplugged from the motors because they were RTV in place with a lot of RTV.
One thing that the video was not to clear on was which motor (left/ Right) need to be reversed. So I reversed both of the motors but it turned out that just the right/back motor need to be reversed.
Other things that I noted is the screw spacing for the screws on the chain mount where to close to each other not by much.
Just enough to make you look at it to get the screws started.
I also not a fan of turning the interface board 90 degree but it works so moving forward.
After setting motor Vrefs and the “esteps” in the software made my first prints.
Using one of the files that I had just finished printing before I did the upgrade and it was outstanding!
Prints without issue and vary low ringing!

Questions
What speeds are you guys printing at?
Has anyone messed around with the Jerk and or Acceleration?
I use Simplify3D with a speed setting of 52mm/sec.
I know this is slow but this was the best setting for the old extruder and ringing.
I know that the ringing will start coming back the faster I print but I can put up with some ringing if it is less print time.

Cheers

zemlin
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby zemlin » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:56 pm

I've been using my N2+ which has the Dual Direct Bondtech and an N2 at the day job which has the stock extruder. I haven't seen mention of the surface finish improvement from the Bondtech - here's what I've seen:

I ran the same g-code file on both printers with the same material (Hatchbox black ABS). The top is the N2 with the stock extruder. The bottom is my N2+ with the Bondtech.
N2 Extruder Compare.jpg

Timber Haint
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Timber Haint » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:26 pm

I'm thinking about making this jump. Is everyone running the stock hotend and nozzle on this?

Jetguy
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:30 pm

Yes, for the most part. I don't know how many have gotten the E3D custom setup and I have still yet to install mine. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4841&hilit=e3d
I also run V2H nozzles, but that is also a Raise3D sanctioned part so I consider it a "stock" option. I know for a fact the V2H was manufactured straight from CAD provided by Raise3D of the standard brass supplied "stock" nozzle, and the difference is just the coating.

There is at least one person running 3DSolex "Matchless" nozzles. search.php?keywords=matchless&fid%5B0%5D=4
I'm considering running an Olsen Ruby for CF filament and other abrasives (ordered, but not yet hear and not installed)
http://support.3dverkstan.se/article/66 ... _clearance
I wanted to try one for http://www.polymaker.com/shop/polymidecopa/ and printing https://www.3dxtech.com/carbonx-carbon- ... -filament/

Rogman
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Rogman » Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:12 pm

i am running the BMG with the stock hot end and V2H nozzle on left and Olsen Ruby on the right. i have been using the Gmass Tungsten filament on the right. here is a picture to show height difference. i just pop out left hot end, heat it to temp, remove nozzle and reinstall it without the left nozzle. Image sorry i dont want to get off the topic of the thread just wanted to show height diff. :)

Timber Haint
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Timber Haint » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:18 pm

Made the jump and installed it last night. Overall it went pretty well...

Some things...

Right out of the gate - using the provided hex wrenches - I stripped both of the main screws that hold in the extruder. Not sure why, but it seems to like the provided hex wrench that fit was slightly undersized... maybe my fault... who knows. The screws were definitely in there tight - which is good. I'm pretty mechanically inclined so this isn't the first time I've used hex wrenches or tools. Fortunately, I had a set of screw extractors that did the trick. If you don't have these you would've been S.O.L - the Spanish sun. ;) I got replacements at the local hardware store. The only tip I have for this is be careful... not sure how to avoid this.

After that everything went pretty smooth. I blindly followed the Bondtech installation video which kind of turned out to be a mistake. Partly because I wasn't paying attention and partly because of the video. I switched the "two most left" wires as explained in the video and plugged it back into the rear motor. However, because I have a single extrusion machine, the front motor (as explained in posts here - so kind of my fault) is the motor that extrudes the left nozzle - which is the single extrusion side - and the rear motor controls the right side. The front motor is a direct connect and the rear motor needs the wires swapped. Once I swapped the wires back, cut the zip tie holding it and plugged it into the front all was good. Setting the Step-e per mm was obviously easy and I did confirm in the gcode that it was set before printing.

The adjustment of the Vref went pretty smooth. The video showed screws for removing the power supply/board cover, but mine had tabs holding it in. Nothing big, just take your time getting it off and all is good. It did take me a little time fiddling with the screws to get as close to .5 V as possible, but this was just me trying to get as close as possible to .5 V... again... nothing big.

Questions:

1) I don't currently have the PTFE feed tube installed and it seems to print fine. Has anyone noticed that they need it or don't need it, or have any thoughts on whether or not this is necessary?

2) The screws that hold in the gears on the side. It seems like this would be a factor of how much "grip/bite" you want the gears to have. How much should they be tightened?

Jetguy
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:30 pm

I don't currently have the PTFE feed tube installed and it seems to print fine. Has anyone noticed that they need it or don't need it, or have any thoughts on whether or not this is necessary?


When you move the extruder to the extreme left side of the bed, and it was previously printing on the right side and has taken up slack from the spool, it yanks the filament and spool. How much does it take to skip an XY step with that extra jerk of dragging the filament rapidly?

Yes, use a tube or use an overhead spool setup. Using a side pull setup and no guide tube is asking for trouble.

The main purpose of using a guide tube is so that there is no up/down or left/right pull on the extruder during printing. The guide tube isolates the slow pull of feeding filament to only the spool and also controls the arch or loop of filament.
Yes, there are situations like not using the correct tube (wrong plastic, wrong size) in that it causes more drag with a given filament. Examples are that flexible filaments, rough filaments, and oversized filaments can drag in a tube.
That's why a while back, premium Capricorn tubing was recommended. They have 2 options, one is opaque blue and is tigher diameter but supposed to be a slicker internal coating. The translucent version is larger ID making oversized and rough filament have less contact and less friction. https://www.captubes.com/shop/
Also sold at Filastruder https://www.filastruder.com/products/ca ... tfe-tubing

Timber Haint
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Re: Bondtech BMG upgrade for the N series

Postby Timber Haint » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:44 pm

I wanted to post another "gotcha" I found - which is very obvious once I thought about it. Today when I went to print I noticed that once the nozzle/bed heated to temperature, the bed adjusted and the nozzle began to do it's "pre-print extrusion" (the little bit of filament that is extruded before actually printing) that only about an two or three inches of filament extruded. Then when it went to print it wouldn't lay down a steady stream of filament and it started dragging filament all over the place. I did this a few times and could not figure out what was happening.

After thinking about what was happening I realized that the filament was not being extruded at the correct rate.

Then it hit me... I had been using a new laptop that had a fresh installation of ideaMaker on it. You've probably guessed it by now.. I hadn't set the Step-E per MM value in this version of ideaMaker. While it's a simple and stupid mistake - it's an easy one to make.

I just wanted to throw this out there in case anyone searched the forums.


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