Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

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NewbPilot
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Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:12 am

So, I need to order parts. I just need to be sure I'm ordering the right ones.

While heating up my N1 Dual Extruder, left extruder only, right has only been used once, i noticed a bit of Magic Smoke coming from the machine. At first i thought some filament was just in a bad spot, or maybe the hairspray got on the nozzle somhow and smoked. But then I got this error.
IMG_0226 2.JPG


That was followed by the right extruder hitting 300+ degrees, even though it was off. You can see in the error that the "temperature" is 319 but the setting is to 0 .. this wasnt turned on at all. So I went into the settings, made it "single extruder" and have been printing left extruder JUST fine. However, I need to fix the issue. You can see in this 2nd picture that there's a black mark where the insulation burnt.

IMG_0229 2.JPG


No idea how it shorted, no metal anywhere near it. So the question is, do i have to replace the Extruder connection board, or something else? Or do i just need to change the heating rod?

Thanks
Matt

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:43 am

In case any other damages, I recommend to change thermocouple and extruder board together with heating cartridge.
The origin problem may due to board. But not sure whether the thermocouples are well functional or not.

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walshlg
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby walshlg » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:39 pm

Wow I wonder how that happened. Let us know if you gather any insights

NewbPilot
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:59 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:In case any other damages, I recommend to change thermocouple and extruder board together with heating cartridge.
The origin problem may due to board. But not sure whether the thermocouples are well functional or not.


Thank you. Ordering parts today.

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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:00 pm

walshlg wrote:Wow I wonder how that happened. Let us know if you gather any insights

I really have no idea. I did nothing different than I ever do. Removed print. Sprayed hairspray on a lint free cloth, wiped hairspray on bed in a smooth motion to make a new layer of adhesion. Turned on left extruder and bed to warm up. saw smoke. turned everything off. had short.

It's still running fine w left extruder only - but it makes me sad panda to have to fix this. I have ZERO desire to rip this baby apart right now

ABH
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby ABH » Sat Apr 01, 2017 6:30 am

I doubt very much that this black mark on the heater wires has anything to do with your fault. These heater wires are very large diameter wires and they will require a lot of current to melt. Even if there was a weak spot on the wire here and it really burned over, then you would only see that as missing heater power, not as a temperature measurement error.

I believe your fault is on your thermocouple. It looks like the thermocouple loop is broken somewhere.
The thermocouple wires (red and white) are connected to the extruder board opposite the heater wires.

Before ordering any parts, why not first do a couple of experiments.
If you have a multimeter you could easily measure for shorts from the thermocouple wires to the hotend metal, while you have the thermocouple wires disconnected. You could also measure the resistance between the two thermocouple wires (red to white, still while disconnected), it should be a few ohms, otherwise you have a broken wire somewhere.
There should be no short (i.e. there must be no electrical connection) from the thermocouple wires to the hotend metal.

If you don't have a multimeter, then you could remove both thermocouple tubes from the hotends to get them electrically away from the hotend metal. Then switch the thermocouples at their connection to the extruder board, to see if you now only have the faulty temperature measurement on the other channel. If so, then you have proven that your extruder board is OK and you only have to order a new thermocouple.

NewbPilot
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:51 pm

ABH wrote:I doubt very much that this black mark on the heater wires has anything to do with your fault. These heater wires are very large diameter wires and they will require a lot of current to melt. Even if there was a weak spot on the wire here and it really burned over, then you would only see that as missing heater power, not as a temperature measurement error.

I believe your fault is on your thermocouple. It looks like the thermocouple loop is broken somewhere.
The thermocouple wires (red and white) are connected to the extruder board opposite the heater wires.

Before ordering any parts, why not first do a couple of experiments.
If you have a multimeter you could easily measure for shorts from the thermocouple wires to the hotend metal, while you have the thermocouple wires disconnected. You could also measure the resistance between the two thermocouple wires (red to white, still while disconnected), it should be a few ohms, otherwise you have a broken wire somewhere.
There should be no short (i.e. there must be no electrical connection) from the thermocouple wires to the hotend metal.

If you don't have a multimeter, then you could remove both thermocouple tubes from the hotends to get them electrically away from the hotend metal. Then switch the thermocouples at their connection to the extruder board, to see if you now only have the faulty temperature measurement on the other channel. If so, then you have proven that your extruder board is OK and you only have to order a new thermocouple.


Thank you! Great idea! I already ordered the parts, even though they didnt ship. At the worst I'll have spares on hand for the future. However, I will check those things later. It's weird that it would break, however, given the fact that I dont use it at all. It literally would break from just sitting idle. It never has filament going through it, so unless some how a wire broke just because the head moves for the left extruder, it seems odd. Gremlins!

NewbPilot
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:13 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:In case any other damages, I recommend to change thermocouple and extruder board together with heating cartridge.
The origin problem may due to board. But not sure whether the thermocouples are well functional or not.


Finally not working 80+ hours a week :) Just changed out the Thermocouple and the heating rod on the 2nd extruder. Turned it on and the heat still creeped from 23c to 90c within 2 minutes while nothing is on. Just turned it off, changed out the board, and same problem. Right nozzle just started showing temperature increase even though everything is off.

What do I do next?

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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:25 pm

Notes of things I've tried
1 - changed thermocouple and heating rod
2 - changed entire extruder connector board
3 - Updated Touchscreen from 8.0 to 9.1
4 - Re-flashed motion control firmware with 1.1.1 from fresh download on site
5 - exported logs (attached)
raisetouch-serial-816-20170708151317.log
(18.39 KiB) Downloaded 59 times

6 - factory reset.

None of the above stop the right extruder from running away temp wise the second i turn it on. it doesnt actually heat, it just shows that it does. Sadly, i went from being able to print just fine one print at a time anywhere from 1 to up to 7 hours... but now the last 3-4 prints they all fail pair through in the first 30 minutes or so

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:09 am

Please advise me your ticket number, we will arrange some other spare parts for you to test.

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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:14 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Please advise me your ticket number, we will arrange some other spare parts for you to test.

Thank you Vicky. The ticket is 1206.

Curious if there is a firmware update beyond 1.1.1 that I should be using? I see 1.1.1 on the site, but I think the Github shows 1.1.6.

Thank you
Matt

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:43 am

Will ask my colleagues to help follow up your ticket.

The 1.1.1 is the official version.
And the version 1.1.6 has added some new feature into it, and open to users who'd like to help test the functions.

firesped
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby firesped » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:52 am

firmwares past 1.1.1 were attempting to update the Thermal Runaway Protection function but the way it was done was not correct. This is why 1.1.1, the most stable firmware has not moved past that point. the issues can not be fixed without hacking the code. The code needs to be updated to one that works. I don't remember looking to see if 1.1.6 rev1 fixed that or not.


In order to fix the issue, you have to "shoe horn" code from the newer marlin version into it. This is why I stopped trying to fix the raise3d 1.1.1 firmware based on marlin 1.0.2 version and worked on getting the official marlin 1.1.0 firmware to work on the printer.

reviewing the code, it was halfway fixed. It put some of the code in but did not put in the full code. as i stated, I stopped trying to fix that version of marlin and got the newer 1.1.0 marlin working on the printer. I did this for free and sent the code to raise3d to test.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

NewbPilot
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:17 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Will ask my colleagues to help follow up your ticket.

The 1.1.1 is the official version.
And the version 1.1.6 has added some new feature into it, and open to users who'd like to help test the functions.

Working with Brandon Lee. He wants me to make sure the ribbon to the Motion Control Board is seated properly. I need to figure out how to access it on the N1 - i know on the N2 it's on the side, but the N1 I assume underneath. I dont know if i access via removing the LCD or turning it on it's side or something else. Brandon said everyone is at a trade show until Thursday so he will ask someone to reply to me when they return

Side question - on my new N2 there are more than 9 screws on the bed. Looks like 13. This post to true the bed says 9 .. is that old bed and i have a new bed?
https://www.raise3d.com/pages/bed-leveling-instruction

it's still not level so i can only use about 100x100mm of the bed at any one time

firesped
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby firesped » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:26 pm

the heater plate has not changed, I believe even my EB N2 has holes for all 13 screws. but the carriage plate is likely different in later models. allowing for the additional screws to be used.

here is the issue though. the metal plate is going to warp when you heat it, nothing can change that. that is why they have 13 screws in there. to try and keep it in place. part of the issue is clipping the glass plate to the heater plate. you can damage the printer playing with those clips. and replacing all the electronics is not cheap.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

NewbPilot
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Jul 12, 2017 1:09 am

firesped wrote:the heater plate has not changed, I believe even my EB N2 has holes for all 13 screws. but the carriage plate is likely different in later models. allowing for the additional screws to be used.

here is the issue though. the metal plate is going to warp when you heat it, nothing can change that. that is why they have 13 screws in there. to try and keep it in place. part of the issue is clipping the glass plate to the heater plate. you can damage the printer playing with those clips. and replacing all the electronics is not cheap.


So what I am hearing is
1 - (ok, so i just re-read the post and it says there are total 13 sets of screws so total 13 points to measure (Older units contain 9 sets of screws). I can swear that wasnt there when I read it a few weeks/months ago :)
2 - take off the two clips in the back of the heat bed that are screwed on and dont use binder clips on the front

yes?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:04 am

No need to remove the screen. The N1's electronic box is under the machine. There has a cover at the bottom side of N1. Open

My colleagues should will share your more detailed steps with pictures or description to guide you how to achieve it.

And yes, both the previous and new versions all have 13 points under the heating bed. But previous versions only have 9 points to adjust the height. And new versions' 13 points are all for height adjusting.
Previous versions have 4 point at each of the 4 corners and 1 in the center.
New versions are 3, 2, 3, 2, 3 from rear side to front side.

NewbPilot
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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:22 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:No need to remove the screen. The N1's electronic box is under the machine. There has a cover at the bottom side of N1. Open

My colleagues should will share your more detailed steps with pictures or description to guide you how to achieve it.

And yes, both the previous and new versions all have 13 points under the heating bed. But previous versions only have 9 points to adjust the height. And new versions' 13 points are all for height adjusting.
Previous versions have 4 point at each of the 4 corners and 1 in the center.
New versions are 3, 2, 3, 2, 3 from rear side to front side.


Thank you Vicky. My son is here tomorrow-Friday, so hopefully we will both find time to level (true) the bed.

I will wait for your colleagues to share the steps and pictures for the N1. I have always been afraid to turn the machine on it's side, since it shipped with warnings to keep upright at all times ;)

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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:33 am

If you still keep the origin protective foam, it will help a lot to protect the sides of your N1 when laying it down on side.

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Re: Shorted heating cartridge & maybe board

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Jul 14, 2017 1:32 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:If you still keep the origin protective foam, it will help a lot to protect the sides of your N1 when laying it down on side.

Called Tech for the true the bed process yesterday, the one tech we got said the other tech we needed wasnt in. Called again today, both techs were in, but were in a meeting. Called back and worked with Michael who helped us true the N2 bed. The newer N2 beds have 13 calibration points with m3 nuts on a screw and then 2 grub screws per M3. The process is much different than the walk through on the site - alternatively modifying the M3 nut or the 2 grub screws to raise or lower the bed in each of the 13 points. The entire process of trueing the bed took 3 hours. The first hour was mostly asking questions regarding the process and slowing adjusting a few points while on the phone with him. I then let him free and we continued the process.

The next two hours consisted of adjusting a spot, moving to the next, adjusting it, then doing 2 or 3 more spots before checking the old spots, then moving on incrementally. In the end there was 1 of the 13 spots that was just a touch "loose" where the head and bed were not as close as the other points, but not enough to stop the train.

We adjusted the z-gap one last time, checked a few points in a final check, and started a 4 hour print that is 120 x 104, which is about 20x20 bigger than we could previously print on the 305 x 305 bed :) So happy.

Michael said he'll work with Brandon tomorrow on our 1206 ticket for the N1. It seems there's a chance that the motion control board is bad or the ribbon from MCB to Extruder board is bad. He said he'd work with Brandon and send us out some parts. I'm hopefuly to get that printer back online in the next week or less.

Thanks for all the info and assists!


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