Play in the printhead

Topics around mechanical design, controller and electronics. Mods & hacks welcome.
lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:58 am

Hello all and happy new year !!

i have improved my prints quality with some mods i found here (thanks to all) and now that the layers are good, i can see little "echoes" on my prints (i first see it on the benchy boat around the holes at the front of the boat and i read thruster told the elf hut can confirm ringing so i print one and i found echoes on it taht means ringing).

As i read some topics here, made some checks (i slightly adjusted one belt) but i quickly found that i have some play in the printhead (a strong play on one axis and a very little on the other). The shafts parrarel to the axis where ringing appears the most are always dirty with black stains on them. I hope now that it is linked to the play... or maybe the rod where black stains appear is bent ?
The more i print, the more my eyes manage to see details : i have taken a look at some old parts and there was also echoes on these parts i didn't notice before.

So, i need to replace some parts to be good. What scares me is the lead time to get these parts and the instruction to remove bad parts and instal the good ones.

What are the parts to replace ? rods and bearings ? others ?? other checks to make to be sure there's no other problem ?

I know that thruster did it but i didn't found a topic related to this subject (sometimes it's hard to find...) or instructions where i can see how difficult it is to perform and if i need specific tools, other infos...

Thank you for your help !

ABH
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Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:31 pm

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby ABH » Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:40 am

I replaced my rods and printerhead bearings on my N1 printer. Not because I had bad printing quality, but because it annoyed me, that I could feel a significant play in the bearings, when I moved the printerhead from side to side.
The only difficulty I faced was removing the lock rings inside the printerhead, that holds the bearings in place. This operation is quite tricky, as there's not much space in there, and I had to make a special tool to expand the lockrings.
I bought quality MISUMI bearings and rods at the correct length. The only thing I had to do, was to grind a small groove in the end of the rods (the groove where the screw goes in that prevent axial movement of the rod).
After replacing the bearings and rods I cannot feel any play, when I shake the printerhead and everything moves nice and freely. However, I didn't notice any improvement in printing quality, so my conclusion is, that it might not be worth the effort, unless you, like me, are a perfectionist :-)

lami3d
Posts: 217
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:37 pm

Thanks for your help !

my friends say i'm perfectionnist but i'm in 3d printing since only 3 month and i feel now that i can see very little difference on a same print. Also, the fact that i was testing form futura abs which is very shinny visually increase the issue on the print i usually use to test filament (benchy boat).

Maybe you're more perfectionnist than me and your original play was smaller than mine :)
When i handle and slowly move the printhead to feel the play, i imagine that the nozzle can move for about 1 or 2mm on the worst axis...

i used like thruster settings 80mm/s, 50% outline... and maybe i can hide the issue by decreasing the speed but i prefer solve the original issue.
Last edited by lami3d on Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lami3d
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:40 am
Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:38 pm

So, it seems hard to perform the replacement :(

ABH
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Re: Play in the printhead

Postby ABH » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:40 pm

It's not difficult, if you manage to remove the lock-rings. You need quite long Lock Ring Pliers with a "bent nose". Unfortunately I didn't take any photos from the operation.
"the nozzle can move for about 1 or 2mm", -are you sure about that?? That's really bad! My play was significantly less.
One way to test the bearings is to try and rotate the rods. Loosen the screws in the ends, so the rods can move freely from side to side. Then try to rotate the rods. For a good bearing/rod fit it should be difficult to rotate the rod in the bearing, if the rod isn't moved axially at the same time.

mtsmetzler
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:20 pm

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby mtsmetzler » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:51 am

Replace ALL your 8mm shafts with the highest quality linear shaft you can afford. Same goes for linear bearings and bushings. My N2 shafts had sections that measured 7.8mm in diameter, just rattled around on there right out of the box. One of the x axis drive/carrier shafts was bent and caused the head to rise and fall as it rotated, .254mm TIR or FIM for the kiddies.

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:49 pm

mtsmetzler wrote:Replace ALL your 8mm shafts with the highest quality linear shaft you can afford. Same goes for linear bearings and bushings. My N2 shafts had sections that measured 7.8mm in diameter, just rattled around on there right out of the box. One of the x axis drive/carrier shafts was bent and caused the head to rise and fall as it rotated, .254mm TIR or FIM for the kiddies.


Wow, tx for the help, i feel like you understand what i mean
But it means to change everything on the printer lol, the fans, the fan ducts, the extruder and now all the shafts and bearings
i'm sure it will lead me to the "top" with this printer if i do that but i'm not sure to manage to do that without breaking something

mtsmetzler
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:20 pm

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby mtsmetzler » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:10 pm

Nothing like spending over $2,000 on a new machine that needs a complete rebuild. We didn't even get into replacing the extruder cold ends. There is no real warranty on these machines. Sending out free replacement parts the user has to replace themselves after waiting 6 weeks for the part to arrive is not a warranty. A warranty is refunding my full purchase price for this piece of garbage.

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walshlg
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Re: Play in the printhead

Postby walshlg » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:43 pm

yeh this totally bites but is pretty much the only way you can do it with big printers

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:14 pm

And then, i finally found the origin of my ringing problems. I'm going to put a movie in a new topic.

20170125_113144[1].jpg


It was difficult because i'm new in 3D printing but after reading and reading a lot of topics... I understand better how it works and i can identify clearly that YES , my shafts are totally bent, it's a shame :oops: :oops:

But more disgusting, when i explained that to my reseller (that i call every week since the delivery), he perfectly aknowledges that my printer had a big problem before or during the delivery because he's aware of all my issues since the begining.
But, now 15 days that i try to prove and explain the problem to raise3d and i feel now like treated like an idiot.

1. because my reseller perfectly understand the problem and know that i'm looking for a solution to this problem since the delivery.
2. because, i can wait 50 days for a flexible coupling and 100 days for a limit switch and it's like nobody cares at all.

I spent my money and the printer is not working so i'm now loosing money because i can't work for my customers
And i spent now my time to explain and prove my problem instead of hearing apologizes for this printer.

JDH
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Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:22 pm

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby JDH » Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:21 pm

Hello, i too am experiencing alot of play in the printhead. The slop comes from both linear shafts and bearings. I just purchased this machine 2 weeks ago and am in contact with my seller who is in contact with Raise.

With this being an apparent recurring issue i think Raise needs to adress this problem and either come up with an upgrade and or redesign. If they truly want to produce a machine of high quality then this should be an absolute priority.

I will add another thing which could be an issue. The movement of the printhead on the shafts by hand ( power off) seemed very dry. The grease that is used from the factory is not very lubricating. I can see that just minimal use of the head ( not sure how long test prints at the factory are)with this condition could prematurely wear the bushing/ bearings, like running a new engine without oil. Upon first realizing how siezing the movement was i cleaned all the factory grease off and applyed a new coat of lube oil with a high viscosity. This instantly changed the feel and movement of the head on the shafts to a very smooth feel. This also silenced the noises coming from the head when traversing under power. No more whinning and straining. I know this has been mentioned before but i just want to reaffirm this also needs to be addressed.

Does anybody who has replaced/ upgraded their shafts and bearing happen to have Misumi part numbers?

I also have not received any apology from Raise after numerous back and forth communication, the only apology came from my seller, who is not to blame.

And i do think instead if being asked by tech support to provide proof of the issues including video, pictures, sample prints, online documentation, they should realize a few things.. I paid full price for a machine that was advertised as ready to run and of high quality, Raise should do the homework themselves instead of getting the consumer to do it for them, and its insulting to be asked to repeat yourself when one explanation is sufficient. They are aware of the issue, dont act like its something they havent seen before, thats the reaction im getting... This thread should act to inform Raise of a few things, i hope they pay attention.

Thanks

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:50 pm

I replace my 4 shafts and i'm going to replace the 2 shafts that pass through the printhead and the printhead.
And i hope it would be ok. I don't see any PN on the shaft

Raise say that we have to clean the grease and apply PTFE lub

You have some checks to do before and performing some adjustment before replacing everything.
Maybe you have already done that ?

Adjusting XY Gantry.pdf
(1.09 MiB) Downloaded 38 times

Aligning X _ Y Rods.pdf
(419.51 KiB) Downloaded 38 times

Belt Adjustment Instruction.pdf
(878.42 KiB) Downloaded 35 times


Good luck !

Monty
Posts: 87
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby Monty » Fri Mar 10, 2017 6:12 pm

Yer my bearings are all over the place I did look at replacing them with quality ones I can see how you get the Y rod out though the hole in the back but the X rod was totally different.

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:09 am

you leave the rod linked to the motors by the hole

Raise said to me that actual printers have holes in the frame that permits to leave all the rods but, on older printer you have to remove the screws of an angle to remove the other rods... once the angle is disconnected from the frame, you can push the rod a little bit more inside and the rod is going to leave the opposite hole

Monty
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Re: Play in the printhead

Postby Monty » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:33 pm

I think you can remove the rods by undoing the 4 allan bolts on the bottom of the rod holder blocks .

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walshlg
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Re: Play in the printhead

Postby walshlg » Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:06 pm

lami3d wrote:And then, i finally found the origin of my ringing problems. I'm going to put a movie in a new topic.

YES , my shafts are totally bent, it's a shame :oops: :oops:

.


may I suggest that your shafts may not, infact, be bent but may be misaligned and are bending under load (i.e. can be fixed). My shafts looked bent but it was because of the bad alignment of the top pulleys - off by 15 mm! when I fixed that they sprung right back into proper shape.

you will have to search the forum but there are lots of posts on alignment of the top shafts and pulleys

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:33 am

hello and tx walshlg !

i know these alignement instructions and i performed them many times.
i've replaced these shafts, so i can tell you that they are really bent !
i have 2 printers and i could see the difference between them.

As i removed nearly everything on the printer, i understood how it must be when everything is in place.
I even run now these procedures a little bit differently that they are described and i'm satisfied.

I just have to replace now the 2 center rods and the printhead to see if i can have enough room between the printhead and the left sliding block when the screw hit the X limit switch... when everything is adjusted.

lami3d
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2016 7:40 am
Location: Marseille - France

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby lami3d » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:41 am

What raise sent me :

"If your printer is an old type which has no hole at two of the four axes.
You may need to remove the fixing screws of the which fixing the side corner with the inner frame.
filehelper_1487907559584_37 (1).png
filehelper_1487907559584_37 (1).png (146.35 KiB) Viewed 902 times



Then grab the corner frame a little out. Then you can draw the axes out.
2.png
2.png (161.12 KiB) Viewed 902 times


Here is the length of each axes.
616117854332998299.jpg
616117854332998299.jpg (16.75 KiB) Viewed 902 times
"

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walshlg
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Re: Play in the printhead

Postby walshlg » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:39 pm

Interesting!

Monty
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Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:13 pm

Re: Play in the printhead

Postby Monty » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:13 pm

On a 4 month old printer I shouldn't have to re build it.


Whats probably happened is it was built and tested with good parts, then they sent it to China to get it built, The company building it has probably though 'ohh we can save a few $ by using lower quality parts here' and we get the problems then.


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