Retraction problem with 3.1.0

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Rudolph
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Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:38 pm

Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Rudolph » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:23 am

I just started a print and observed this on the first layer:
IMG_20180217_105749s.jpg
IMG_20180217_105749s.jpg (22.26 KiB) Viewed 842 times

This is with IdeaMaker 3.1.0.

This is the bottom part of a case and it has six holes in it.
It does retract, I can confirm it from the print and it shows in the preview.
But it does not retract everywhere it should and therefore messing up the surface a little.

I have the "Minimal Travel of Retraction" set to 5.0 mm but even the two shorter lines in the bottom half of the picture are longer than that.
The two lines in the upper half are around 30mm long.

And I really do like the "Concentric" option for "Solid Fill Pattern Type".
But I believe it has a problem as well.
It looks like the pattern is exactly the same for all layers so the lines are aligned on top of each other.
This makes the print a lot less stable than it could be.
With "Lines" as pattern the layers are layed down alternating, same with "Rectilinear".
I suggest to rotate the pattern by 90° on every other layer.
Or as this would only work with rectangular shapes but not with square shapes, make it an option.
Well, instead of a value to be entered it could be a drop-down menu with entries like 0/45/60/90.

Annother thing is the printing order that already is improved.
This is with "Lines" as pattern:
printing_order_lines.jpg

It starts from the lower right and "fails" on the lower left where it fills the corner first instead of continuing to fill the bigger plane.
Thus leaving the big plane a bit fragmented and "uglier" than it could be.
Attachments
bottom_retraction_first_layer.jpg
RGB_BODEN_2018_01_11_CHO_data.zip
(22.58 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:41 am

Would you like to share the Gcode file about this model with me to check more details? Only found Data file in the Zip file.
The Concentric structure doesn't have angle or direction, since it only includes circles with the same shape of the structure of that layer.

Rudolph
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Rudolph » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:43 pm

Sure, attached.

Okay, it may not be easily possible to rotate the layer when filliing it in "Concentric" mode.
What about filling every other layer with "Lines" then to make the surface stronger?

The selected mode should be of course be used for the outer layers, so at least the first and the last layers when you happen to have setup two solid layers for bottom and/or top.
Attachments
RGB_BODEN_2018_01_11_CHO_gcode.zip
(793.45 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:18 am

If you have tried with unchecking the option of Avoid Retraction inside Model? The string lines in your first picture of printing seem all inside the inner structure of the model. Please check the result with that option disabled.

If you choose Line as top solid layers infill type, the direction of each layer will be rotated in 90 degrees.
1.png
2.png
3.png

You can set per-layer of the top solid layer infill type, some to be Lines and some to be Concentric.

Rudolph
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Rudolph » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:07 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:If you have tried with unchecking the option of Avoid Retraction inside Model? The string lines in your first picture of printing seem all inside the inner structure of the model. Please check the result with that option disabled.


I just tried that and it works better. Now all retractions points that I would expect are used and the first layer is printed okay.

I do not get it though.
How can any part of the *first* layer be considered *inside* the model?

Plus now it does quite some unecessary retracts while missing just four before.

If you choose Line as top solid layers infill type, the direction of each layer will be rotated in 90 degrees.


Yes, I know, that is what I wrote.
But I like "concentric", it looks nice.
I am only concerned that "concentric" is mechanically weaker than "lines".
Plus with "lines" it never fills a big plane in one go, it always looks a bit, well, fragmented.

You can set per-layer of the top solid layer infill type, some to be Lines and some to be Concentric.


How?
I tried to find it in the "Group and Layer Settings" which btw. is a pain to use.
And there is no option for the top/bottom solid layers.

I guess I could set the bottom solid layer to 1 and infill to 100% but this would hardly be a generic workaround.

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Thomllama
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Thomllama » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:43 pm

yaaa... kinda having the opposite issue, thing s retracting for no reason.. like a LOT... am I missing something?

Screen Shot 2018-02-19 at 3.36.06 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-02-19 at 3.35.35 PM.png

Rudolph
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Rudolph » Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:47 pm

Thomllama wrote:yaaa... kinda having the opposite issue, thing s retracting for no reason.. like a LOT... am I missing something?


Try to increase the value for "Mininal Travel of Retraction" to lilke 5.0 mm.
If the head has to move less than the given value it skips the retraction.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:09 am

Rudolph wrote:I do not get it though.
How can any part of the *first* layer be considered *inside* the model?


Well, the "model" I meant here refers to the structure inside "shells". Sorry for misunderstanding.


How?
I tried to find it in the "Group and Layer Settings" which btw. is a pain to use.
And there is no option for the top/bottom solid layers.

I guess I could set the bottom solid layer to 1 and infill to 100% but this would hardly be a generic workaround.


Do you mean you want to set only the last layer of each set of top solid layers to be Concentric, and the below layers are all Lines?
If so, then the current per-layer settings cannot help. The currently per-layer settings can only achieve editing infill type of all the top solid fill layers to be one type at some height range.

Rudolph
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:38 pm

Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Rudolph » Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:17 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Rudolph wrote:I do not get it though.
How can any part of the *first* layer be considered *inside* the model?


Well, the "model" I meant here refers to the structure inside "shells". Sorry for misunderstanding.


Well, sort of, I understood you well and unchecking "Avoid Retraction inside Model" worked.
However, it should not work this way.
The top and bottom layers are on the outside of the object, just like the shells.
If Ideamaker considers any point of the bottom layer to be inside of a model this is nothing but a bug.
This whole option "Avoid Retraction inside Model" is pretty much useless when only appliied to a 2D space instead of 3D.

Regardless, my prints look pretty nice now, even nicer than what the guys at work who constructed the case printed using Cura and a printer that costs ten times of what my printer costs. :-)
They even asked me to show them how I did it. :-)

Do you mean you want to set only the last layer of each set of top solid layers to be Concentric, and the below layers are all Lines?
If so, then the current per-layer settings cannot help. The currently per-layer settings can only achieve editing infill type of all the top solid fill layers to be one type at some height range.


Yes, that is exaytly what I would like to do. "Concentric" on the very first and very last layer for the looks of it.
And "Lines" on all other solid layers for increased stability.

It's not like the prints are not stable now, "Concentric" just looks like one could pop-out the middle of a plane while this would be impossible with the criss-cross pattern of "Lines".

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:12 am

Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Rudolph wrote:I do not get it though.
How can any part of the *first* layer be considered *inside* the model?


Well, the "model" I meant here refers to the structure inside "shells". Sorry for misunderstanding.


Well, sort of, I understood you well and unchecking "Avoid Retraction inside Model" worked.
However, it should not work this way.
The top and bottom layers are on the outside of the object, just like the shells.
If Ideamaker considers any point of the bottom layer to be inside of a model this is nothing but a bug.
This whole option "Avoid Retraction inside Model" is pretty much useless when only appliied to a 2D space instead of 3D.

Regardless, my prints look pretty nice now, even nicer than what the guys at work who constructed the case printed using Cura and a printer that costs ten times of what my printer costs. :-)
They even asked me to show them how I did it. :-)


Actually we have considered that the strings will affect the final result of the top surface, so we force the nozzle to do retraction at the last layer of the model.
If needed, we can force the nozzle to do the same at the first layer.
Do you mean you want to set only the last layer of each set of top solid layers to be Concentric, and the below layers are all Lines?
If so, then the current per-layer settings cannot help. The currently per-layer settings can only achieve editing infill type of all the top solid fill layers to be one type at some height range.


Yes, that is exaytly what I would like to do. "Concentric" on the very first and very last layer for the looks of it.
And "Lines" on all other solid layers for increased stability.

It's not like the prints are not stable now, "Concentric" just looks like one could pop-out the middle of a plane while this would be impossible with the criss-cross pattern of "Lines".


Notes taken. We will try to find out whether we have any space to add maybe a list or some other options there for users to set fill type order.

Rudolph
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Rudolph » Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:17 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Actually we have considered that the strings will affect the final result of the top surface, so we force the nozzle to do retraction at the last layer of the model.
If needed, we can force the nozzle to do the same at the first layer.


Yes, please, I am printing parts upside-down all the time so the first layer is my top layer.
Okay, not the part I posted but for example the second half of that enclosure.

What makes this a bit strange, it already does some retraction with "Avoid Retraction inside models" activated, only four points had no retraction - otherwise there would a lot more stray lines in my picture from the start.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:53 am

Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Rudolph wrote:


Yes, please, I am printing parts upside-down all the time so the first layer is my top layer.
Okay, not the part I posted but for example the second half of that enclosure.

What makes this a bit strange, it already does some retraction with "Avoid Retraction inside models" activated, only four points had no retraction - otherwise there would a lot more stray lines in my picture from the start.


If the nozzle will pass over the holes, the retraction will be triggered no matter you check "Avoid Retraction inside Models" or not.

harrygeier
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby harrygeier » Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:06 am

just a small correction ...

i had the same issue with no retract on layer0 . But the information text shows the wrong information.. it does not say anything about retractions.. Reading it , one thinks it´s just about preventing MOVES inside the model hole areas AT ALL

2018-03-04 09_03_19-ideaMaker 3.1.0 (ANETA8) - _.png

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Retraction problem with 3.1.0

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:34 am

harrygeier wrote:just a small correction ...

i had the same issue with no retract on layer0 . But the information text shows the wrong information.. it does not say anything about retractions.. Reading it , one thinks it´s just about preventing MOVES inside the model hole areas AT ALL

2018-03-04 09_03_19-ideaMaker 3.1.0 (ANETA8) - _.png


Thanks for the reminder. Will fix it soon.


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