ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Discussions about ideaMaker and other printing software.
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:35 am

duke666 wrote:please include in the preview layer or the height of the pause, but in any case to be seen and understandable, even in mm even the layer number, and so the pause turns out works almost like a lottery, it's easy to miss with calculations !!!


Do you mean mark the pause point in preview? We will take a look whether we can achieve this or not.

paulvl
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby paulvl » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:03 am

Can one object (not cut) be printed with two extruders with different plastics? That is not one extruder with different settings of the layer, but two.

duke666
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby duke666 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:42 pm

Yes, I mean in the preview to specify a pause point where the structure of the layers is shown, it would be very convenient!

Rudolph
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Rudolph » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:35 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Which version of ideaMaker are you using? I'm using the latest version.
Sliced your tested file with 99% infill, I can see the 5th line inside.


Well, this was with 3.0.5.1438.
Interestingly my win10 died a couple of days ago and I had to set it back meaning all applications were gone
and so are my profiles, at least for the moment, I should be able to restore them.
I just installed 3.0.5.1438 again and tried a default template which also has 0.4 extrusion width and nozzle width.
And with the 2 Shells und 10% Infill it already is different, there really is Infill.
25% Infill looks like it should in the preview.
And 99% Infill is just solid five lines.
3+ Shells results in two lines but it has Infill.

Looks like I should only restore my old settings to get a few hints for editing a fresh setup.

jorge__1976
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby jorge__1976 » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:38 pm

Hello,
First thanks for the job for ideamker 3.0.5.

But i have slice a dual extrusion set with two different nozzle 0.3mm left and 0.4mm, and i have not modifiacation of extrusion width in the .gcode?

Have you the problem solved?

Thanks.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:21 am

paulvl wrote:Can one object (not cut) be printed with two extruders with different plastics? That is not one extruder with different settings of the layer, but two.


No, you can only assign one model for one nozzle.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:35 am

duke666 wrote:Yes, I mean in the preview to specify a pause point where the structure of the layers is shown, it would be very convenient!


Notes taken.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:38 am

Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Which version of ideaMaker are you using? I'm using the latest version.
Sliced your tested file with 99% infill, I can see the 5th line inside.


Well, this was with 3.0.5.1438.
Interestingly my win10 died a couple of days ago and I had to set it back meaning all applications were gone
and so are my profiles, at least for the moment, I should be able to restore them.
I just installed 3.0.5.1438 again and tried a default template which also has 0.4 extrusion width and nozzle width.
And with the 2 Shells und 10% Infill it already is different, there really is Infill.
25% Infill looks like it should in the preview.
And 99% Infill is just solid five lines.
3+ Shells results in two lines but it has Infill.

Looks like I should only restore my old settings to get a few hints for editing a fresh setup.


Have you saved the .data files of the previous problem files. We may can dig out the settings from there.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:52 am

jorge__1976 wrote:Hello,
First thanks for the job for ideamker 3.0.5.

But i have slice a dual extrusion set with two different nozzle 0.3mm left and 0.4mm, and i have not modifiacation of extrusion width in the .gcode?

Have you the problem solved?

Thanks.


And you changed the extrusion width here?
3.png

Rudolph
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Rudolph » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:32 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Have you saved the .data files of the previous problem files. We may can dig out the settings from there.


I did not save any of it, only checked it in the preview.
But I saved my complete user-data directory and some more before I allowed windows to flush everything.

So I just restored the profile I was testing with.
I can not find the printer settings, where are these stored?

So I just assigned my restored profile to that same "new printer" as that "New Template1" I quickly clicked together.
And the preview still leaves the wall hollow.
I then made some quick adjustments to that new profile to make it more similar to my old one.
This one still comes out with Infill in the wall.

.Gcode and .data is attached.

Oh, I just went thru it one last time to catch different settings and found the one that triggers it.
I set Infill Pattern Type to Rectilinear in my old profile and it was set to Grid by default.
When I set my old profile to Grid I get Infill in the preview.
When I set the new profile to Rectilinear to wall is hollow.

And now that I look at it again, with 25% Infill I see zig-zag lines.
At first in a amount totally plausible for 25% Infill.
But how is that even possible?

2mm_wall_infill.png


This is 2mm thick wall with 4 lines of 0.4 mm width each.
The walls should overlap a bit but the extrusion width already should be a bit wider than the nozzle.
In any case there should be no more of a gap than a single extrusion width.
Yet the preview shows this short segments that are not was wide as the gap.

What does Ideamaker really calculate with the extrusion width setup?
The resultiing extrusion width should be a result of several factors such as flow-rate, speed, nozzle-width and distance to the surface.
Attachments
2mm_Wall-Test_slicing_result.zip
(41.4 KiB) Downloaded 16 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:45 am

Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Have you saved the .data files of the previous problem files. We may can dig out the settings from there.


I did not save any of it, only checked it in the preview.
But I saved my complete user-data directory and some more before I allowed windows to flush everything.

So I just restored the profile I was testing with.
I can not find the printer settings, where are these stored?


Check this option under Help. Here is the directory where we store our profiles in. Have you backup the folders inside before OS reinstall?
1.png


So I just assigned my restored profile to that same "new printer" as that "New Template1" I quickly clicked together.
And the preview still leaves the wall hollow.
I then made some quick adjustments to that new profile to make it more similar to my old one.
This one still comes out with Infill in the wall.

.Gcode and .data is attached.

Oh, I just went thru it one last time to catch different settings and found the one that triggers it.
I set Infill Pattern Type to Rectilinear in my old profile and it was set to Grid by default.
When I set my old profile to Grid I get Infill in the preview.
When I set the new profile to Rectilinear to wall is hollow.

And now that I look at it again, with 25% Infill I see zig-zag lines.
At first in a amount totally plausible for 25% Infill.
But how is that even possible?

This is 2mm thick wall with 4 lines of 0.4 mm width each.
The walls should overlap a bit but the extrusion width already should be a bit wider than the nozzle.
In any case there should be no more of a gap than a single extrusion width.
Yet the preview shows this short segments that are not was wide as the gap.

What does Ideamaker really calculate with the extrusion width setup?
The resultiing extrusion width should be a result of several factors such as flow-rate, speed, nozzle-width and distance to the surface.



If you find real extrusion width is not exactly the 0.4mm, you can edit the Extruder Width under Advanced setting. That will optimize your printing result based on the real situation.

Rudolph
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Rudolph » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:11 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Rudolph wrote:I can not find the printer settings, where are these stored?


Check this option under Help. Here is the directory where we store our profiles in. Have you backup the folders inside before OS reinstall?


I checked that with the current installation and there are no printer settings in that directory tree.
And as I wrote and as you quoted me, I did backup everything before allowing Win10 to wipe it all.

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
So I just assigned my restored profile to that same "new printer" as that "New Template1" I quickly clicked together.
And the preview still leaves the wall hollow.
I then made some quick adjustments to that new profile to make it more similar to my old one.
This one still comes out with Infill in the wall.

.Gcode and .data is attached.

Oh, I just went thru it one last time to catch different settings and found the one that triggers it.
I set Infill Pattern Type to Rectilinear in my old profile and it was set to Grid by default.
When I set my old profile to Grid I get Infill in the preview.
When I set the new profile to Rectilinear to wall is hollow.

And now that I look at it again, with 25% Infill I see zig-zag lines.
At first in a amount totally plausible for 25% Infill.
But how is that even possible?

This is 2mm thick wall with 4 lines of 0.4 mm width each.
The walls should overlap a bit but the extrusion width already should be a bit wider than the nozzle.
In any case there should be no more of a gap than a single extrusion width.
Yet the preview shows this short segments that are not was wide as the gap.

What does Ideamaker really calculate with the extrusion width setup?
The resultiing extrusion width should be a result of several factors such as flow-rate, speed, nozzle-width and distance to the surface.



If you find real extrusion width is not exactly the 0.4mm, you can edit the Extruder Width under Advanced setting. That will optimize your printing result based on the real situation.
[/quote]

Sorry, but did you actually read anything of what I wrote?

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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:59 am

Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Rudolph wrote:I can not find the printer settings, where are these stored?


Check this option under Help. Here is the directory where we store our profiles in. Have you backup the folders inside before OS reinstall?


I checked that with the current installation and there are no printer settings in that directory tree.
And as I wrote and as you quoted me, I did backup everything before allowing Win10 to wipe it all.

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
So I just assigned my restored profile to that same "new printer" as that "New Template1" I quickly clicked together.
And the preview still leaves the wall hollow.
I then made some quick adjustments to that new profile to make it more similar to my old one.
This one still comes out with Infill in the wall.

.Gcode and .data is attached.

Oh, I just went thru it one last time to catch different settings and found the one that triggers it.
I set Infill Pattern Type to Rectilinear in my old profile and it was set to Grid by default.
When I set my old profile to Grid I get Infill in the preview.
When I set the new profile to Rectilinear to wall is hollow.

And now that I look at it again, with 25% Infill I see zig-zag lines.
At first in a amount totally plausible for 25% Infill.
But how is that even possible?

This is 2mm thick wall with 4 lines of 0.4 mm width each.
The walls should overlap a bit but the extrusion width already should be a bit wider than the nozzle.
In any case there should be no more of a gap than a single extrusion width.
Yet the preview shows this short segments that are not was wide as the gap.

What does Ideamaker really calculate with the extrusion width setup?
The resultiing extrusion width should be a result of several factors such as flow-rate, speed, nozzle-width and distance to the surface.



If you find real extrusion width is not exactly the 0.4mm, you can edit the Extruder Width under Advanced setting. That will optimize your printing result based on the real situation.


Sorry, but did you actually read anything of what I wrote?[/quote]

I have checked your file, the gap inside is too narrow to generate infill properly. Since Grid pattern is consisted by separate lines, but Rectilinear needs connections between each infill line to make the whole infill to be one continues line which needs larger space to generate both the lines and connections properly.
ideaMaker doesn't calculate extrusion width dynamically, it will only use the value you set as extrusion width.

Rudolph
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Rudolph » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:53 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:I have checked your file, the gap inside is too narrow to generate infill properly. Since Grid pattern is consisted by separate lines, but Rectilinear needs connections between each infill line to make the whole infill to be one continues line which needs larger space to generate both the lines and connections properly.
ideaMaker doesn't calculate extrusion width dynamically, it will only use the value you set as extrusion width.


Well, that wall is 2mm wide and the extrusion width is set to 0.4 mm.
When Ideamaker does not change extrusion width dynamically that leaves 0.4 mm of space between the other two lines.

Why is that not enogh space to put another line?
Why does Ideamaker not put together this wall as just five lines when outer shells are set to 3+?

And why does the grid infill preview show short angled lines for the infill that must be less wide than the space between the outer space?
I set Infill Overlapp to 0% and it makes no difference.
If the grid infill lines are 0.4mm wide the space between the shells must be wider than 0.4mm, if that is the case, why is there no space for annother line?
If the grid infill lines are smaller than 0.4mm, how does that happen?

My guess is that the outer shells are placed with a little overlap which leaves the empty space wider than 0.4 mm.
I am afraid that would result in over-extrusion when setting extrusion width as wide as the nozzle-width.

When searching thru the internet for "extrusion width" I found that the resulting extrusion width can be assumed to be nozzle-width * 1.2 which would mean 0.48 mm for a 0.4 mm nozzle.
Apparently Simplify3D is using that factor. But 0.48 again leaves that wall without Infill in Ideamaker.
While Slic3r uses 1.05 for outer perimeters: http://manual.slic3r.org/advanced/flow-math And 0.42 still results in Infill with Ideamaker.

I am afraid that setting extrusion width as a constant will not work in every case and is guess-work at best.

Rudolph
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Rudolph » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:04 am

Advanced Settings/Ooze/Other
The checkbox has the text "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" but the tooltip reads "The nozzle will avoid moving through the inner holes...".

Advanced Settings/Other/Travel/Avoid Traveling Through Holes has no tooltip.

Edit: "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" seems to be always on.
When I untick that checkbox I still do not get any retraction and thus no z-hop inside a plane with several holes in it.
The head travels several times across already printed material such scratching over the surface.

Edit2:
I created a small test case with tinker-cad.

"Minimal Travel of Retraction" is set to 1.0 mm.

This is with "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" ticked off and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked on:
hole_test_no_retraction.png
hole_test_no_retraction.png (89.85 KiB) Viewed 797 times


This is with "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" ticked off and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked off:
hole_test_2.png


This is with "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" ticked on and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked off:
hole_test_3.png


So it looks like "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" does not do much and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" kind of works but messes up the retraction.
Attachments
hole_test_gcode_data.zip
(39.71 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
hole_test.stl
(17.66 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:18 am

Rudolph wrote:
Vicky@Raise3D wrote:I have checked your file, the gap inside is too narrow to generate infill properly. Since Grid pattern is consisted by separate lines, but Rectilinear needs connections between each infill line to make the whole infill to be one continues line which needs larger space to generate both the lines and connections properly.
ideaMaker doesn't calculate extrusion width dynamically, it will only use the value you set as extrusion width.


Well, that wall is 2mm wide and the extrusion width is set to 0.4 mm.
When Ideamaker does not change extrusion width dynamically that leaves 0.4 mm of space between the other two lines.

Why is that not enogh space to put another line?
Why does Ideamaker not put together this wall as just five lines when outer shells are set to 3+?

And why does the grid infill preview show short angled lines for the infill that must be less wide than the space between the outer space?
I set Infill Overlapp to 0% and it makes no difference.
If the grid infill lines are 0.4mm wide the space between the shells must be wider than 0.4mm, if that is the case, why is there no space for annother line?
If the grid infill lines are smaller than 0.4mm, how does that happen?

My guess is that the outer shells are placed with a little overlap which leaves the empty space wider than 0.4 mm.
I am afraid that would result in over-extrusion when setting extrusion width as wide as the nozzle-width.

When searching thru the internet for "extrusion width" I found that the resulting extrusion width can be assumed to be nozzle-width * 1.2 which would mean 0.48 mm for a 0.4 mm nozzle.
Apparently Simplify3D is using that factor. But 0.48 again leaves that wall without Infill in Ideamaker.
While Slic3r uses 1.05 for outer perimeters: http://manual.slic3r.org/advanced/flow-math And 0.42 still results in Infill with Ideamaker.

I am afraid that setting extrusion width as a constant will not work in every case and is guess-work at best.


We define one shell as a closed loop currently. For shape like the thin wall as you tested, the shell loop should be a rectangle consisted by 4 segments. But it is not enough space to put the third shell with 4 segments inside the left 0.4mm-width space.

If I didn't misunderstand, in your opinion, the third line should be an extra line but not infill segments.
And if the width of left gap is 0.5mm, you want the software to define a extrusion line with 0.5mm width, right?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:29 am

Rudolph wrote:Advanced Settings/Ooze/Other
The checkbox has the text "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" but the tooltip reads "The nozzle will avoid moving through the inner holes...".

Advanced Settings/Other/Travel/Avoid Traveling Through Holes has no tooltip.

Edit: "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" seems to be always on.
When I untick that checkbox I still do not get any retraction and thus no z-hop inside a plane with several holes in it.
The head travels several times across already printed material such scratching over the surface.

Edit2:
I created a small test case with tinker-cad.

"Minimal Travel of Retraction" is set to 1.0 mm.

This is with "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" ticked off and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked on:

This is with "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" ticked off and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked off:

This is with "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" ticked on and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked off:

So it looks like "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" does not do much and "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" kind of works but messes up the retraction.


Checked your pictures, the two with "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" ticked off do have travel line through holes.
1.png
1.png (148.39 KiB) Viewed 765 times

And "Avoid Retraction Inside Models" doesn't take effect on the last two top solid layers. The Retraction will be forced to applied on the last two top solid layers.
2.png
3.png
4.png

Rudolph
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Rudolph » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:24 pm

The Retraction will be forced to applied on the last two top solid layers.


It's not, there is no retraction inside the model on *any* layer as long as "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" is active.
On the first picture *I* posted there is no retraction and that even is the last layer.

I noticed that in print, it just smears filament all over the plane and moves the nozzle thru it.
Looks awfull.
The GUI is broken between the two options.

We define one shell as a closed loop currently. For shape like the thin wall as you tested, the shell loop should be a rectangle consisted by 4 segments. But it is not enough space to put the third shell with 4 segments inside the left 0.4mm-width space.


Okay, now this explains why it does not lay just five lines.
Still the question remains why the infill lines indicate that the gap is wider than 0.4 mm when there are four shell lines of 0.4 and the wall is 2mm.
By what margin do the shell lines overlap?

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:24 am

Rudolph wrote:
We define one shell as a closed loop currently. For shape like the thin wall as you tested, the shell loop should be a rectangle consisted by 4 segments. But it is not enough space to put the third shell with 4 segments inside the left 0.4mm-width space.


Okay, now this explains why it does not lay just five lines.
Still the question remains why the infill lines indicate that the gap is wider than 0.4 mm when there are four shell lines of 0.4 and the wall is 2mm.
By what margin do the shell lines overlap?


The angled lines of infill are just because the infill is defined to be grid. If the infill space is big enough, you will see lots of crossing lines. But since the 2mm model has limited space inside, you can only see short angled lines instead.
1.png


And the following two pictures show the difference between 0% overlap and 100% overlap.
0 overlap.png
100 overlap.png

When it reaches to 100%, the longest the infill line can overlap fully cover the last one inner shell.

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Re: ideaMaker 3.0-RC Release Note Updated Rev. 3.0.5 2017.12.18

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:51 am

Rudolph wrote:
The Retraction will be forced to applied on the last two top solid layers.


It's not, there is no retraction inside the model on *any* layer as long as "Avoid Traveling Through Holes" is active.
On the first picture *I* posted there is no retraction and that even is the last layer.

I noticed that in print, it just smears filament all over the plane and moves the nozzle thru it.
Looks awfull.
The GUI is broken between the two options.


Just checked with the file you shared last time, found some strange of the retraction points. Will take a look and feedback the result with you.


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