Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

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DerRad1ra
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Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby DerRad1ra » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:45 am

Hello Community,

im on a Projekt where i need the Vase Mode, but just in my second Component....
So i need my main Case fullly field and my other Part in the Case in Vase mode it shuld be a funktion as a bellow.

My Problem is i cant find any Option to practice this.. Have someone a idea how it maybe works??

Thx for Help ppl.

Jetguy
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Joined: Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:40 am

Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Jetguy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:18 pm

Projekt where i need the Vase Mode, but just in my second Component....

It doesn't work like that. If you want such control you need an advanced slicer that can do completely separate processes for regions of a model or individual STLs. In addition, nothing else can exist in layers that are performed in vase mode. Again, vase mode ONLY works for very specific shapes of models and very specific conditions. You cannot have multiple shells or non-uniform shapes as that is not vase mode.
Last edited by Jetguy on Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Jetguy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:26 pm

While this is for simplify 3D slicing software, the rules are identical for almost any slicer that can use vase mode.
https://forum.simplify3d.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1999

Example is this part with the tail can never be printed in vase mode. Why? Because once you get up to the layers of the tail and main object, there are 2 logical objects printing on a layer and since they are not connected on the layer- that involves retraction as the nozzle would leave the outline of one object and travel to the other. That's not vase mode on so many levels.
Vase mode failure.png
Vase mode failure.png (134.14 KiB) Viewed 332 times


The only way even possible to have 2 objects on the build plate and one in vase mode and one in another mode is again using an advanced multi-process slicer that allows sequential printing. Due to the gantry in the Raise 3D N series, there is a height limit as well as XY distance blockouts for sequential printing. Again, even advanced software, there are still physical and logical limitation to what the mechanical machine can be commanded to do.
https://www.simplify3d.com/support/arti ... -printing/

Jetguy
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Jetguy » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:44 pm

Again, as you have described, you have a main housing or shape. Inside and likely attached or designed as a single STL you have a secondary shape inside the vertical height distance you want vase mode.
There are so many problems with what you want to do.
#1 is the fact that the software has limited ways of selecting regions of a single STL model. This is often restricted to just selecting a height as a region in even some of the most advanced slicers. Basically, you need to separate into individual STL files rather than one large combined component.
#2 Next, the logical process of what you are even trying to achieve. Vase mode means the nozzle never stops extruding and also is not doing a Z zipper logical layer rise to the next layer at fixed or even random positions. True vase mode is a continuous spiral single wall extrusion with no stops or starts and the layer is a continuous slope of the layer- not flat layers of a fixed height like the rest of the print. This is why you cannot mix modes (normal flat layer printing in one area and vase mode in the same logical layer height or region).
#3 Even if you solved #1 model region selection my making it 2 individual STLs for the shapes of this complex model, you need an advanced slicer to be able to apply and select completely separate process settings to those regions. Ideamaker is simply not capable of this at this time.
#4 Even if you got past #1 and 3#, you use an advanced slicer, you have separate STLs, you have your advanced sequential printing processes, now you run into the physical and logical limitations of the Raise 3D printer itself. Simply put, when printing the layer, you must account for the entire size of the extruder head and fans as the nozzle tip moves to print a layer. If you attempt sequential printing and you have 2 objects, one inside a larger object, if either one is printed taller first, then you are highly likely to run into an interference distance where when printing one or the other parts of the printhead crash into the previously printed walls that are taller than the object you are now printing sequentially.

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby DerRad1ra » Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:27 pm

Thx for all replies!! Nice informations for a beginner like me :)

I sloved the problem by construct my inner part diffrent. So i get the effect without the Vase option.

But now i got the next Problem with Polyflex... it stucks in my Bondtech system..

Is it better to drill the drill to harder presure if i Print with Polyfelx or lowering the pressure to the fillament?

Thx to u guys a nice Sunnday Evening

Jetguy
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Jetguy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:27 pm

If I understand correctly, you mean the side tension screws that adjusts the pressure of the 2 drives gears to grip the filament.
Drive tension adjustment.jpg

In a traditional single side drive where the gear or hobbed wheel and then the idler wheel or bearing arrangement, one is often a "V" or "U" shape and the other is flat. This deforms the filament from round to not round. The softer the filament, the less tension you can apply in some cases because it will deform it. Also, because single side drives deform one side of the filament into the gear teeth, they tend to make the exiting filament curve in a bend. In flexible filament, if it finds a place of unguided path before the nozzle, it can buckle.
Feeder jam.png

The Bondtech has 2 "U" shaped grooves in the gears gripping both sides of the filament. This means that while you might slightly deform the filament under extreme conditions, generally this does not happen with the Bondtech. In other words, you can and should tighten the bondtech within reason to fairly tight (spring compressed but not to the point of total coil collapse). The advantage of dual side drive or grip is that the filament is pushed down perfectly straight with no bending action.
Bondtechgears.jpg

Which comes to the next part- Flexible filament is harder to print with. Just because you slap a Bondtech extruder on your printer does not mean that you can print Flexible materials at the same speeds, and in fact, does not guarantee you can print every filament you put into the printer. The Bondtech feeder is just one part of the overall extruder system. While it grips better and can provide more force of pushing the filament, it still interfaces with the rest of the Raise 3D system of extruder components.
Last edited by Jetguy on Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Jetguy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:38 pm

Here is a thread on flexible filaments jamming in the stock extruder (non-bondtech upgrade) but some of the details are universal.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=899&hilit=adjust+exruder

Jetguy
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Jetguy » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:44 pm

More importantly, here is a thread where I described some feed gaps in the system where filament can jam.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2276&p=16791&hilit=ptfe+guide#p16789

Much more detail so read that whole thread.
extruder cross section.jpg
extruder cross section.jpg (46.45 KiB) Viewed 309 times

DerRad1ra
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby DerRad1ra » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Thank you Jetguy :)

yes u are right. That was what i mean.. So ill try to fix the Problem and check where the Fillament stuck.

I saw it at my first Print with PolyFlex it is way diffrent to other Fillaments in things underfeeding and Printing speed and so on ..

Have a nice day Jetguy

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby DerRad1ra » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:27 pm

Hi Guys,

i tryed to print the 3rd time and i have always the same problem . My first lines are very good then my lines get thiner and thiner and of the end i have a stuck on my extruder.

I made a Video while Loading my Polyflex it works for a while very good but after 20 seconds it stuck and knack knack knack .. STUCK..

So maybe someone can help me with this issue.. I tried many poitions on my sidescrewer but if i lower the pressure too mutch it stuck (i guess) on the Lower hotend mount and no fillament comes out of my nozzle..

SO here is the vid interesting from 18sec to end.

is my feedrate to high? Flowrate to less?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObE3kj6 ... e=youtu.be

i would be glad to stop the Problem after 3 times Cleaning my Bondtech im very pissed :D :D


Thx

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Brandon
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Brandon » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:18 pm

With flexible materials I've used feedrates of 25mm and a .6mm nozzle it worked well with the extrusion temperature is in the proper range for the filament.

We can't address this directly as your printer has a 3rd party modification to the Extruder as seen in the video. We do have a thread in the forums here regarding the Extruder you are using here where other users can provide input.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1709

We encourage innovation and experimentation however we can only offer direct support of the product as shipped. Please feel free to share your experiences in the thread provided above.

If you feel you are having an issue with the hotend you could open a ticket and we could review your needs from there.

Open a support tickets here:

http://help.raise3d.com/support/tickets/new

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby DerRad1ra » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:26 pm

Thank you Brandon,

i hope i can slove the problem and can share it for other ppl.. ON thing more the given Tempreture is 225 and on it leaks still wit 195 Degress out of my nozzle..

Thank u so frar :)

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Brandon
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Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby Brandon » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:31 pm

I have printed it from 235C to 215C, I had the best results at 215C and dropped the feedrate down to 20mm with the standard Extruder.

DerRad1ra
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:38 am

Re: Vase Mode only in a Section of a Print. Possible?

Postby DerRad1ra » Sun Nov 05, 2017 7:19 pm

Hi Brandon,

jep now it works here my Profile

Thanks
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