IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

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jerteach
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IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:39 am

My brand new stock N2 can bridge about 50 mm without a problem, so why is the IdeaMake auto generated supports so close together?

Both methods to auto-generate supports (interactive or slicer), default to really close together supports. I am looking into more control using the slicer method.


Looks like if I switch from Lines --> Grid and infil % from 30% --> 6%

support-settings.png
support-settings.png (8.03 KiB) Viewed 1086 times


Then I get more of what I am looking for



supports.png
supports.png (13.28 KiB) Viewed 1086 times




P.S. Using the interactive method has anyone found a way to lasso multiple supports for deletion or do we have to click on each one to delete it?
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:13 am

I'm so sorry, but if you refer to the support pillars in Manual Support, you can only delete them one at one time with one click.

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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:40 pm

My supports testing above miserably failed because my Horizontal Offset was still at the default 0.75 mm.

Here are the new supports settings I am testing.


supportsoffset.png



Makes a support grid about 10 mm apart. Anyone else have any luck with different styles of support structures?
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walshlg
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby walshlg » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:03 pm

fwiw I always place supports manually, EXCEPT for large flat areas, since it is so dependent on material temperature and geometry

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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:58 am

Here is what I have been doing for a few years. Using grid style supports instead of a raft to cut down on the amount of filament printed and using elephant feet to really attach the corners to reduce warping. Less filament, easier removal, less warping. Just cause I can do it on another 3D Printer doesn't mean I can do it yet on the Raise3D, but this print worked nicely. Just have to wait until Monday to see if it detaches easily.

The full print is a case for the Raspberry PI 3 with touch screen.

20170421_104232.jpg
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
Train: Rugby Players and Recurrent Neural Networks
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:57 am

So I know now why the supports are so close together. When the supports are far apart like when using my grid technique the bridge part has lots of stringy bits for it's bottom layer. With really close supports that is not a problem. For my situation in which are are making prototypes the low quality is fine since it shows if the part works and it ups the speed and reduces the filament waste.

My build above came off the buildTac great but was really hard to remove the supports. I have done another build with the supports 2 layers away and I will see how that works.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
Train: Rugby Players and Recurrent Neural Networks
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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:17 pm

walshlg wrote:fwiw I always place supports manually, EXCEPT for large flat areas, since it is so dependent on material temperature and geometry




walshlg If you use the interactive pillars on Ideamaker, what width do you like? I can't remember what it defaults to, but think it was about 1 mm.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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walshlg
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby walshlg » Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:37 pm

I never use pillars smaller than 4mm, I like to use 8mm and have some bridging since support pillar falls are frequently fatal to the prints

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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:23 pm

walshlg wrote:I never use pillars smaller than 4mm, I like to use 8mm and have some bridging since support pillar falls are frequently fatal to the prints



Wow. Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. I am not having much luck with my grids. They are really hard to remove.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:34 am

I am not having a lot of success with my grid supports. They look great, work great using less filament but are really hard to remove both vertically and horizontally. Can someone spend some time explaining the support setting tab.

Here is the default support settings

support-tab.png


I am most interested in understanding and manipulating: Horizontal Offset, Vertical Offset Top Layers, Vertical Offset Bottom Layers, Dense Support Layers. Any other suggestions to get my Grid supports working so that they are easy to remove.

I tried Horizontal Offset = 0.20mm and the Vertical Offsets both set at 2, but the supports were still really hard to remove.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:58 am

The following two pictures may can explain which does Horizontal Offset do better than words.
The first one is 10mm, second one is 20mm.
1.png
2.png


Vertical Offset refers to the gap between support sturcture and model structure.
Top Layers refers to the bottom solid layers which are the first layers after supports.
Bottom Layers refers to the top solid layers which are the first layers under supports.

Default ratio of support is 30%. But Dense Support's infill ratio is 80%. Which means dense support is almost a solid layer. So that the first layer after support will be very flat because it has no space to hang down.

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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:36 pm

Thanks Vicky. I will have to play with things a bit more. Both vertical and horizontal offset makes sense, not sure how dense supports fits with what I am trying to do with grid supports.

Sorry to be a pain, but the N2 is so much better than my Tinkerine on almost all counts except this issue. The N2 supports work great they just use a huge amount of filament. I will keep digging on this issue.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
Train: Rugby Players and Recurrent Neural Networks
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:17 pm

So my idea is to try making the best supports for this weird table object without using a raft but looking for low print weight and time, supports should be strong enough, easy to remove, and stable.

If you want to try it download the .stl file here:
supportTest03-Table-Test.stl
(16.88 KiB) Downloaded 7 times


Table Image

table.png


The model is about 16 grams and about an 60 min to print (theoretically) without any raft or supports (probably not a good idea to try it ;) )



Results so far:

With default supports it takes 33g and about 120 min to print.
default-table-supports 33g 2 hour.png



default-supports-removal.jpg

This just finished. Really well done. Normal difficulty removing from the print bed even without a raft since most of the printbed contact is supports.
A bit hard to remove the supports but generally well done. The table has a few thin parts so had to be really careful removing the supports, especially around the circle in the middle of the table.

Underneath the table and other overhangs it is a bit rough, but not hairy like I was getting with my grid supports.





My grid supports take about 22g and about 90 min to print, but I am still trying to tweak this now that I understand dense layers. Will have to wait until tomorrow to print this.

support-22g-1-and-half-hour.png


Anyone have an opinion between dense support as lines or grids. I am leaning towards 2 layers using a grid.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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walshlg
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby walshlg » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:21 pm

for bigger areas I prefer lines

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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:59 pm

Can someone lead me through the edit settings for pillars. Not the interactive ones, just making pillars instead of lines or grids in the advanced settings--> supports.

pillars.png



When I set pillars, and then slice, Ideamaker asks me if I want to include supports (even though I have set it to make supports). It the ignores pillars and just makes lines or grid totally ignoring my pillars settings. Is this a bug or am I doing something wrong.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Mon May 01, 2017 4:03 am

So here is what is driving me crazy with Ideamaker supports:

If I have a large object positioned so that it needs supports. Using the default line supports it takes 88 hours and uses about $52 filament.


only.png


deafultlines.png



But if I make a solid box under the overhang with default speed settings and a small gap of about 0.4 mm between the solid box and the overhang then the print only takes 42 hours and uses about $28 filament (And that is with printing the raft!).






supports.png



both.png


So a solid object is a better support than the lines that Ideamaker generates. Something seems a bit off. Does anyone have some settings that make good supports without enormously increasing the print time.

My other option is to just start making my own supports using solid objects. This step is actually really easy, I just so want Ideamaker to generate supports automatically for me.

P.S. The above study a few posts before showed that the Ideamaker default supports were by far better than anything I could get Ideamaker to generate using grids. My supports were always hard to remove.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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walshlg
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby walshlg » Mon May 01, 2017 4:12 pm

must you print in this orientation? It seems like such a waste

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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Mon May 01, 2017 6:08 pm

walshlg wrote:must you print in this orientation? It seems like such a waste


Thanks walshlg. I knew someone would say that. I really don't want to print a large "L". And yes, if I did want to print a large "L" I would print it the other way up.

I do want to learn how best to make supports on the Raise3D with Ideamaker software. The best answer might be, to use Simplify3D software if you really want to have to have full control of supports on your Rasie3D N2 machine. I however do not want to pay for Simplify3D if Ideamaker can make the supports.

Presently Ideamaker makes fine supports it just uses a ton of filament to do it. I am just trying to reduce the amount of filament. Once again if anyone wants to share their support settings that work with reduced amount of filament I would be very grateful.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
Train: Rugby Players and Recurrent Neural Networks
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jerteach
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby jerteach » Tue May 02, 2017 5:48 am

I think I am going to end this study unless anybody has anything to add.

All of my attempts to make supports better than the default supports have been fails. The default supports add a lot of filament to the print but at least they are reasonably easy to remove and are stable during printing. The default supports seem to be the way to go with the N2 printer using the Ideamaker software.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
Train: Rugby Players and Recurrent Neural Networks
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: IdeaMaker Supports so close together?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue May 02, 2017 5:55 am

Pillar refers to the area where you want to put support. Not the shape of support.
ideaMaker only has two types of support shape, grid and line.

If it jumps out no support, please add, that must because you have choose support here. But if you have set manual support before slice, you don't need to be care about this warning.
1.png
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