Just Released N2 Pro

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:32 pm

One point I keep seeing mentioned seems to be a mystery to me. What is it about the camera, that everyone is complaining about? My N2 Plus came with a simple webcam. It’s nothing spectacular; but it works. Initially, there was a Raise3D branded app to monitor it; but (at least for iOS devices) when iOS required all apps to be 64 bit; Raise3D said to just use the OEM app (DeepCam). Regardless; anyone wishing to add remote camera monitoring to their printer can do so by choosing one of countless webcams available for purchase. (Best to choose one that will function at higher temperatures. ). If there isn’t a mount already available on Thingiverse; then design and print one to fit your needs.

As for remote control of your device; the only real function that is practical, when you can’t physically touch the machine, is to stop a failed print. I have used Jump Remote Desktop on computers and iOS devices, to remotely control Imagemaker and occasional halt a print, if I detect a problem. Depending upon your platform; there are plenty of remote access apps available on the market.

So, am I truly misunderstanding the issue; or are others not seeing the obvious solutions? If I’m wrong, I’d truly like to know what feature set I’m missing out on..

newraiseuser
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Fri Mar 30, 2018 10:46 pm

Jetguy wrote:I wrote a rather lengthy email to Raise 3D directly, so I'll post it here.
So, what the new Pro series allows us to do that the current N2/N2+ can't?

The main feature I see is the moving nozzles for dual extrusion. I'm sure the feature works, I'm sure the test users who got one had a great time (I was not a tester). Without more technical details, without actually seeing first hand how this is implemented, without putting it in the hands of the novice who I swear can break anything, making the mechanism more complicated than already as seen in current versions- I see a ripe disaster and some very pissed off users in the future. It's like the ideal mechanism. It works just long enough a reviewer likely to get one on loan will never see the frustrating- what if you do want to change a nozzle situation. To them it works like magic- all the way until it stops working and then the frustration factor will fully kick in. If you cannot change a nozzle now, if you cannot level 2 nozzles if your life depended on it, a nozzle that also moves- just think about that for a second.




My first thoughts are:
While I like the new upgrades, there are 2 sides to this coin, existing owners and then new buyers. How I feel about it matters for both groups, but in slightly different ways.

Example 1, moving to a 32 bit motion control is generally a good thing. Upgrading stepper drivers is generally a good thing. That said, there are a few questions:
What firmware specifically is now running on the 32 bit motion control, and if it's just marlin ported to 32 bit- my enthusiasm drops significantly.
What specific stepper drivers were chosen? Are they soldered on the board with zero chance of upgrade? If they are TMC2130s, that's not really an upgrade compared to the newer TMC22xx series with Stealthochop 2. Further, who's to say in 6 months something better doesn't come along. Point being, soldered on drivers might be good for tech support- but limits the "Pro" user.
Also, we cannot forget that the system has not changed. Gcode is still streamed over a USB to serial logical data channel. There are still all the existing rate limitations. I'm just saying, moving to 32 bit in a standard Cartesian printer has limited gain, if you couple that with just porting over existing Marlin firmware, it's not exactly a ground breaking earth shattering upgrade. Again, read this for what it is. This is an upgrade, but how you may view it as a user, what it really means, what it will change in actual real world daily use side by side compared to an existing N series printer is not expected to be earth shattering to the point you should feel your current system is inferior, In fact, your current printer right now today can slap in TMC2224 stepper drivers for $10 each and likely be a better driver unless that's exactly what they chose.

Example 2 is the moving nozzle system. Face the facts, they can say whatever in marketing, we've seen claims before. Yes, I believe the repeatability of the nozzle position is that accurate. Sure, why not? It's just one number. The part that is not yet proven is that given just a single week of typical posts in this group- how do you expect a user to change a nozzle and not destroy the hotend or leak? It's a more complicated system, reusing the existing hotends, you still logically would have to mount and level both nozzles, we cannot get users to do that now. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the new miracle of a century, but I walk away with a lot more questions than answers. Truth is, marketing at the Prosumer, they don't want you to change a nozzle, they want you to change a hotend or pay for a service.
I'm not doubting the new system does what is claimed or it's not that many of you think this is a good idea. But there is a gap between user skill and daily usage and required repair replacement on a more complicated mechanism that is not accounted for in these wish list features.

Filament detectors- already an upgrade and we've said this before, a bone simple system with limited detection features. If as rendered it's at the extruder- did anybody even think about how long pause (buffered gcode segments and those could be long segments) executes? This is why it's a bit too late if the detector is only mm above the actual drive gears of the extruder. Yes, small short segment prints use small short segments of filament- so if that's all you tested with- you think it works fine.

Heated bed upgrades- good. But, like everything else, some words and a picture VS actual production shipping and real world usage, you are hedging a bet on marketing. Again, the features sound nice, but until a couple hundred novice and pro users use this- we see how production quality is maintained, it's not a selling point I'm banking on, nor is it something I'm just dying to retrofit into my already working N series printers.

Optical endstops. If you managed to crash and damage a mechanical switch endstop, then logic says the same user is perfectly capable of bending the optical flag and crashing one of these. Accuracy never came into question in the first place, so this change, while good, is again not a game changer IMO. It's just different, not good or bad. If you really want, it's not hard or expensive to retrofit your existing, but if that was the case, why is that not a more popular topic?

Bondtech extruders- definitely a good upgrade. But again, for existing users, we already have this option and it doesn't require buying a new printer. On the other hand, how angry are some of you at tech support for claiming you voided warranty or they won't help if you upgrade, and yet in the back room, the company was switching to Bondtech anyway.

Again, my take is that for a new user considering this printer, yes, the upgrades sound great. If you are an existing owner, this does not mean your printer just became obsolete overnight.



Thanks for the analysis. I was trying to decide between the N2 and N2+. Now, I have to also consider the Pro2/Pro2+. The price for the Pro2+ is too high. Unless there is a list of good reasons, I am not going to buy it. Are there reasons to choose the Pro2 than the similarly priced N2+ or the N2?

There was a list of filaments that are compatible with the N2/N2+. I cannot find it anymore to compare with the new list of materials for the Pro2 series.

bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:33 am

newraiseuser wrote:Again, my take is that for a new user considering this printer, yes, the
Thanks for the analysis. I was trying to decide between the N2 and N2+. Now, I have to also consider the Pro2/Pro2+. The price for the Pro2+ is too high. Unless there is a list of good reasons, I am not going to buy it. Are there reasons to choose the Pro2 than the similarly priced N2+ or the N2?

There was a list of filaments that are compatible with the N2/N2+. I cannot find it anymore to compare with the new list of materials for the Pro2 series.


The Pro2 is mostly an evolution of the original N2. There are no differences in what materials you can print; since the temperature ranges are the same. The most significant benefit of the Pro2 over the N2 (in my opinion) is the retracting hot ends. The BondTech extruder is a definite improvement over the original N2 extruder; but you can order the upgrade kit directly from Bondtech for $200.00. It is fairly simple to install. (Just be certain to view both the video and read the instructions; then be prepared to use a little intuition. The instructions are a bit out of date; as the extruder now comes fully assembled and you can remove the original extruder as a full assembly; without taking individual components off - such as the stepper motors.) A little advanced prep and examination of all of the components will save you time in the long run.

Personally; for the price difference, I couldn’t justify the Pro2 over the Original Model. Many of the N2’s deficiencies have been addressed by the user community; with plenty of printable mods available on Thingiverse.

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Billucas
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Billucas » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:57 am

bwulfe wrote: The BondTech extruder is a definite improvement over the original N2 extruder; but you can order the upgrade kit directly from Bondtech for $200.00. It is fairly simple to install. (Just be certain to view both the video and read the instructions; then be prepared to use a little intuition. The instructions are a bit out of date; as the extruder now comes fully assembled and you can remove the original extruder as a full assembly; without taking individual components off - such as the stepper motors.) A little advanced prep and examination of all of the components will save you time in the long run.
.

I own a N2 Plus. I decided to buy the Bondtech upgrade tonight. Also, I will receive soon the Filament Run-Out Sensor Add-on.
I will check to fabricate an air filter. Modify the extruders fans would be great too.
Like other people, I find the price on the Pro 2 Plus a bit high. By this modifications,
my N2 Plus will be more efficient. Maybe later, I will buy the Pro2 Plus.

DragonXtreme
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby DragonXtreme » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:40 am

OK on my list of improvements I would like available, granted I am a new user with Raise3D just not a new user to 3D printing or CNC.

1st - better controller, better drivers, upgrade able drivers, that is if they aren't fixed from the factory.
2nd - camera is nice but functional alternatives is nice as well.
3rd - Bondtech version of the extruder drive, already have but need to install this weekend. Already ordered the filament run out sensor and overrun, just waiting on shipping confirmation a month later.
4th - switches verses proximity, pressure switches are OK, remove the canter lever arm, more accurate, proximity based on my cnc experience are more sensitive than mechanical as mechanical still rely on a delay and proximity is almost instant.
5th - Active dual extruder nozzles that can move up and down independently, limits the knock down and crashes but also adds to the constant issue if not as functional as portrayed, this is a nice option but until proven is not a major want.
6th - Servos verses steppers, oh god I would love to see servos but I do not see that happening soon.
7th - new bed design - looks better and more sophisticated than binder clips, is it more functional, again time will tell.
8th - finer resolution - comes from the control board but the balanced against stepper resolution is the finer resolution actually accurate verses the time constraint to provide it, just something that is gnawing at the back of my mind from stepper resolution verses servo.

What is the box in the upper corner in the pictures, I can't place its function or purpose?

Filtration is nice but the case isn't hermetically sealed, so the benefit is?

I have watch a couple videos from the factory, one comment that has been prevalent is pretty much everything is still open source expect the control panel. the comment that upgrading the current systems to the new design does not make sense. If you mean that an upgrade to a recently purchased N2 Plus would cost an additional 2K then I understand, if you are saying that to upgrade a just shipped N2 Plus is 6k I would say lay off the Saki or Hemp.

A little input form Raise3D would be nice on the subject if you do not mind. And please do not think I am not overwhelmed by your product, compared to my CNC's this is the flat out best 3D printer I have ever owned and I have 20k of them sitting in my office starting with the Z18 though my CNC's are a lot more expensive they still do not allow me to do what I want to do via additive manufacturing verses milling without extra steps.

newraiseuser
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:38 pm

Am I right that there is still no auto-leveling even in the Pro series?

newraiseuser
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:33 pm

I may be wrong but as I recall, the specs for the N2/N2+ did not list Glass Fiber Filled and Carbon Fiber Enforced as materials comfortable with them out of the box. Could these be new filaments only for the Pro series?

Is compatibility of material determined by both the temperature the printer can generate and the nozzle size?

zemlin
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby zemlin » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:58 pm

generally filled filaments just need a more durable nozzle than brass. Stainless is a popular option. R3D has plated brass. I don't know what it's plated with, but they are supposed to hold up. I've printed CF Nylon on my N2 without issue.

jon_bondy
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby jon_bondy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 9:14 pm

@bwulfe:

You said " My N2 Plus came with a simple webcam." Interesting. Mine is less than 2 months old, and it did not come with one. Anyone know what is going on with this feature?

zemlin
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby zemlin » Sat Mar 31, 2018 10:52 pm

bwulfe wrote:One point I keep seeing mentioned seems to be a mystery to me. What is it about the camera, that everyone is complaining about? My N2 Plus came with a simple webcam. It’s nothing spectacular; but it works.

I have an N2+ purchased in October of '17 and an N2 purchased in early February of '18. No camera on either.

FreedomRules
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby FreedomRules » Sun Apr 01, 2018 3:50 am

I hope raise3d will sell the print heads and the new bed. I tried buying some dglass3d auto raise heads but they said they no longer mfg the 1.75 sized unit nor had any left even in just parts. I've been thinking about doing the mod someone on here did for as an overkill bed upgrade. I've tried several times and it just seems impossible to get the stock bed level.

bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:01 am

jon_bondy wrote:@bwulfe:

You said " My N2 Plus came with a simple webcam." Interesting. Mine is less than 2 months old, and it did not come with one. Anyone know what is going on with this feature?



The camera was an add-on option from the Kickstarter Campaign. They may have discontinued the option; but, as I mentioned, anyone can add a camera of their choosing, to the N2 series. The unit from the Kickstarter Campaign is WiFi enabled and powered via USB. Assuming that Raise3D hasn’t changed the printer configuration; there is a USB port (actually, just a long USB extension cable) that comes out of the same block as all other wires, attached to the cable chain. (Top-Left rear of the printer) that cable connects to a port on the main controller board.

Early on, someone designed a mount for the Kickstarter camera; which mounts on top of metal “cube” that all of the wires come out of. It is on Thingiverse. I’d paste in a link; but I’m entering this post from my iPhone and it’s a bit of a pain to search for and copy that link from my phone. Just as well, I have no idea as to whether or not that specific webcam is still available. (It has been two years since it shipped.). Regardless, I know that I have seen other, more recent designs for other web-cam’s; when searching “Raise3D camera mount” on Thingiverse. If you perform the same search; I would think that one of the available mounting bracket designs would match up to a webcam that can be purchased online. It’s this simplicity of adding a camera, on your own, that had me baffled by all of the comments from users, wanting the feature.

If, for some reason, Raise3D has stopped providing the USB power cord at the top of the printer; it is something that can still be added with minimal effort. Running a new cable through the cable pathway can be a bit of a pain; but the port on the motion controller board is still there.

Hope info this helps those who thought they were stuck, out in the cold; until Raise3D offered a new “Official” camera for the N2.

bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:14 am

zemlin wrote:generally filled filaments just need a more durable nozzle than brass. Stainless is a popular option. R3D has plated brass. I don't know what it's plated with, but they are supposed to hold up. I've printed CF Nylon on my N2 without issue.


For the rougher filaments; especially the metal infused ones; Tungsten Steel Tips work best. They are extremely durable and have far better thermal transfer conductivity, than Stainless Steel. (That is why all decent Stainless Steel cookware has thick aluminum pads on the bottom, often in combination with aluminum or copper, sandwiched between the stainless)

The main downside to Tungsten Steel Nozzles, is the fact that they are EXTREMELY expensive; especially when compared to standard brass ones. Considering the cost of most of these more exotic filaments; it’s still a good investment, vs having a print fail mid-way; or just gradually decrease in precision, as your brass nozzle gets chewed up by coarse material.

bwulfe
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby bwulfe » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:28 am

FreedomRules wrote:I hope raise3d will sell the print heads and the new bed. I tried buying some dglass3d auto raise heads but they said they no longer mfg the 1.75 sized unit nor had any left even in just parts. I've been thinking about doing the mod someone on here did for as an overkill bed upgrade. I've tried several times and it just seems impossible to get the stock bed level.


The retractable heads are without question, the most appealing aspect of the Pro2 that I would like to retrofit. I have searched the web for options; but haven’t seen anything that I felt confident about being able to retrofit to the N2.

While a slight improvement over the N2’s design; I was somewhat disappointed to see that the Pro2 still relies upon the Factory Leveled” bed. If it ever goes out of level, or you need to replace the heated bed; their system is a nightmare to re-level. I’m giving serious consideration to TobyCWood’s spring mounted bed leveling mod (on Thingiverse), most likely in combination with a BLtouch auto-level mod; but I need to do a bit more research on the BLtouch and reach out to some of the users who appear to have successfully integrated that mod.

firesped
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby firesped » Sun Apr 01, 2018 6:57 am

Honestly, I have the N2 and with the upgrades I have on it now, I wish it was an N2+. I have lost build height due to bed and extruder upgrades that have improved the quality of my printer significantly. I can't say the upgrades will work for everyone though. I could see that an N2 could be in theory retrofitted to an N2+ or N2++ for that matter.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
raise3D N2 kickstarter Early Bird
Trinus Deluxe (running smoothieware on Azteeg X5 GT board)
Monoprice Maker Select v2

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:55 am

easysofts wrote:You wrote, you are working on an improved single extruder version of the N2 series. Have you more information about this ?



We are still defining the final tech specs. For the time being, we can only inform that it will be an
improved version of the N series, with a single extruder and a price point lower than the Pro2 series.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:57 am

Is there any way to upgrade from N2 series to Pro2 series?

Raise3D: Even if the base and the frame of the Pro2 are very similar to the N2, both printers are essentially different, targeting a different market, with different requirements and with a different price point. The cost of a possible upgrade from a N2 to a Pro2 printer would be extremely expensive.
Nevertheless, we are gathering all your feedback, and we are looking at the possibility of offering to N series Customers an upgrade of the extruder, end-stops and bed system, as well as the promised web-cam.
We will be working now in two parallel projects:
1. Analyse and test the upgrades from 3rd parties that are being recommended to N series printers (the most popular example is the BondTech extruder). Once approved, its installation will not void the warranty and, possibly, we will also include them in our portfolio.
2. We will check the feasibility and cost of using some components of Pro2 in N series and, if we are successful, propose an upgrade package.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:26 am

Vice Chief wrote:Congratulations, Raise3D.

Personally, I'm most interested in seeing sample prints, and in more technical detail about the extruder. I'd also be curious about the long-term availability of the current models.

As someone who recently left a corporate environment, I can see the need for a "service package" as Edward mentions in the video. But I hope Raise3D continues to support the hobby, semi-pro, and small business markets by making any year-to-year subscription type things optional. After all, the reason I didn't choose Stratasys for my prototyping lab (in a big corporation) was because I really, really couldn't budget for that kind of thing.


Raise3D Corporate Service Package will be optional to Customers who buy individuals units. For Corporate Customers who buy full systems, the final package is still being defined.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:28 am

The filtration system we use for Por2 series is HEPA filter.

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3DWP
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby 3DWP » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:44 pm

I try to look at this thing from both sides, as a user/consumer and Raise3D's side.

As a user I would expect/like to see upgrade parts available at reasonable prices as the printers do look much alike and of course are very much the same. Many improvements are sometimes logical and should already be adressed and some have been recommended by the users. (Maybe lots of things are different but at least the hardware looks very much like the N2 series).

As Raise3D I understand that it's economically interesting to build upon the N2 design and parts as much as possible but also market this new model as being more professional and targeted towards industrial users so the price goes up. So Raise3D of course sees this as a very different system even though it looks similar.

But if you compare these two angles, it's hard for them not to upset some people. If they choose not to make upgrades possible and maybe also if they do. If the parts are cheaper than the Pro2 (not counting labor to install) you can get questions again.

If they chose to completely redo design and make the build volume larger etc. the story would be different I think.

Anyway, as any N2 owner I really hope to see at least the retractable nozzle as an upgrade. I have been thinking about changing this myself somehow but haven't begun yet because it isn't simple I think.


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