Just Released N2 Pro

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:57 pm

ziteac wrote:A week ago I was ready to pull the plug on purchasing a N2+. However this thread has me concerned on moving forward especially after this statement by Jetguy.

So is this a true statement and if so how long will Raise3D support there machines even after the warranty has expired with replacement parts. Spending this price I would expect support for at least 3-4 years at "my cost" of course.

I personally cannot justify the cost difference of the PRO2, as the only TRUE upgrades that make it worth while is the extruder and the new bed. In my case the bed isn't that big of a deal and I can purchase the extruder for $200. There other items in "my case" is trivial. Now if there where larger rails or upgraded frame or something that made it beefier then I can see it.

Again, however my concern is future support.


No matter the printer is under warranty or not, we will together with our sales partners keep on supporting our customers.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:01 pm

Jetguy wrote:
Example 1, moving to a 32 bit motion control is generally a good thing. Upgrading stepper drivers is generally a good thing. That said, there are a few questions:
What firmware specifically is now running on the 32 bit motion control, and if it's just marlin ported to 32 bit- my enthusiasm drops significantly.
What specific stepper drivers were chosen? Are they soldered on the board with zero chance of upgrade? If they are TMC2130s, that's not really an upgrade compared to the newer TMC22xx series with Stealthochop


The X Y Z drivers we use for Pro2 Series are stand-alone drivers, located in separate boxes and driven by pulse and direction signals which are not soldered on the board. So the drivers are replaceable separately.
The Extruder drivers are soldered on the motion board. They are STSPIN 820. But the pulse and direction signals are exported to separate connectors, which means you can bypass the soldered chip.

The new firmware is a totally different firmware from Marlin, developed by ourselves, using different motion planning algorithms. With the new firmware, Pro2 series printers can run much faster compared with N series printers which are able to fully use the computation power of the FPU. It is optimized for float calculation and 256 micro-steps drive mode.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:02 pm

Jetguy wrote: 2. Further, who's to say in 6 months something better doesn't come along. Point being, soldered on drivers might be good for tech support- but limits the "Pro" user.
Also, we cannot forget that the system has not changed. Gcode is still streamed over a USB to serial logical data channel. There are still all the existing rate limitations. I'm just saying, moving to 32 bit in a standard Cartesian printer has limited gain, if you couple that with just porting over existing Marlin firmware, it's not exactly a ground breaking earth shattering upgrade. Again, read this for what it is. This is an upgrade, but how you may view it as a user, what it really means, what it will change in actual real world daily use side by side compared to an existing N series printer is not expected to be earth shattering to the point you should feel your current system is inferior, In fact, your current printer right now today can slap in TMC2224 stepper drivers for $10 each and likely be a better driver unless that's exactly what they chose.



We do understand the limitation of the 8-bit processor based on Marlin firmware. Marlin is a great firmware, fully optimized and elegant. But when we started to build the new printer based on a powerful processor, we found that we might need to build a firmware which was oriented at floating point calculation and high step rate. We also applied advanced jerk control which is totally different from Marlin.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:04 pm

Jetguy wrote:
Example 2 is the moving nozzle system. Face the facts, they can say whatever in marketing, we've seen claims before. Yes, I believe the repeatability of the nozzle position is that accurate. Sure, why not? It's just one number. The part that is not yet proven is that given just a single week of typical posts in this group- how do you expect a user to change a nozzle and not destroy the hotend or leak? It's a more complicated system, reusing the existing hotends, you still logically would have to mount and level both nozzles, we cannot get users to do that now. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe this is the new miracle of a century, but I walk away with a lot more questions than answers. Truth is, marketing at the Prosumer, they don't want you to change a nozzle, they want you to change a hotend or pay for a service.
I'm not doubting the new system does what is claimed or it's not that many of you think this is a good idea. But there is a gap between user skill and daily usage and required repair replacement on a more complicated mechanism that is not accounted for in these wish list features.


At the beginning of designing the new nozzle lifting system, we have already considered maintainability of this part. So the hotend is still mounted as the N series’ which you can easily change and swap. No special skill is needed to do the disassembling and assembling.
For checking the height of the two nozzles during assembling, you can easily check the height with one nozzle enabled first then another enabled after to let them touch the feeler gauge to compare whether they can reach the same height or not and adjust the height.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:05 pm

Jetguy wrote:Filament detectors- already an upgrade and we've said this before, a bone simple system with limited detection features. If as rendered it's at the extruder- did anybody even think about how long pause (buffered gcode segments and those could be long segments) executes? This is why it's a bit too late if the detector is only mm above the actual drive gears of the extruder. Yes, small short segment prints use small short segments of filament- so if that's all you tested with- you think it works fine.


We have already noticed this. There will be one new option added in ideaMaker to break long movement into short segments as a short-term solution.
Besides that, we are testing the immediate pause function in the firmware as well.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:07 pm

Jetguy wrote:Heated bed upgrades- good. But, like everything else, some words and a picture VS actual production shipping and real world usage, you are hedging a bet on marketing. Again, the features sound nice, but until a couple hundred novice and pro users use this- we see how production quality is maintained, it's not a selling point I'm banking on, nor is it something I'm just dying to retrofit into my already working N series printers.


Every printer will be shipped with its levelness testiing model.
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:10 pm

Jetguy wrote:@Vicky
Thanks for the replies and I think this comment "We are still defining the final tech specs." is meant for a next gen N2 series, but what about the tech specs of the new Pro series currently preorder status? The machines are built and being shipped. It's a bit late to be in the tech spec defining stage.



This reply doesn't refer to Pro2 series.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:13 pm

Jetguy wrote:#1 what firmware is used on the new 32 bit board?


Raise3D own firmware.

Jetguy wrote:#2 will that firmware source be seen on Github?


No.

Jetguy wrote:#3 What stepper drivers are used on the new control board? (256 microsteps is not the detail we are looking for)


Sorry, but we cannot share too much information about this as it is internal information.
The new driver will be a more industrial using, oriented DSP solution instead of Trinamic.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:15 pm

Jetguy wrote:#5 What details to address cable flexing concerns have been addressed? I mean if you say there are more sensors and potentially a motor or other electronics, isn't that making even more potential wires in the current cable harness that flexes and moves every time the extruder heads move in XY?


The final version will be a little different from the picture we posted on website. The cable routine is changed. We divided the cables as different types. And manage them separately.


Jetguy wrote:Are all cables failures detected with custom error messages? Example, if the filament detector cable fails- does that then stop the print and notify the user what cable failure is suspected?


Only heating system will have both hardware and software protection now.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:16 pm

Jetguy wrote:#7 since the photo shows new nozzles that do appear slightly different than current nozzles, with hard coated versions also be sold (AKA V2H)?


New nozzle is optimized for high volume speed printing, not the same as N series’ nozzles.
We will release harden type later.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:17 pm

Jetguy wrote:#8 The HEPA filtration system- Is that filter widely available and 3rd party sourcing, or is this proprietary and only sourced from Raise 3D direct? Also, are most of these new features going to be 3D printed housing, ducts and brackets on the new machines as shipped starting this month?


You can replace the filtration system to be any other same type of filtration system with the same size.

Jetguy wrote:Also, are most of these new features going to be 3D printed housing, ducts and brackets on the new machines as shipped starting this month?


Only the first batch is installed with 3D printed housing. The later batches have been already changed to be molded parts.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:19 pm

Jetguy wrote:What resolution is the camera?
What resolution is actual video feed?
What resolution are still pictures?


Still picture goes up to QXGA (2048*1536). Video feed goes up to SXGA (1280*1024). But considering the USB bandwidth and network traffic, we limit it to be 320*240.

Jetguy wrote:Can you transfer or capture the timelaspe? (beta could only be viewed on the printer)


For security reason, it is not allowed to be exported. In our plan, we will provide a separate and secure platform later to let everyone login and view remotely. We will share more information later this year.

And higher resolution options will be taken into consideration as well.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:25 pm

Jetguy wrote:The stuff I consider fluff is the weak filament detection integration, the air filter is just straight gimmick in my book, optical endstops I feel pretty non-impressed from a change standpoint. While the new mainboard is good- I'm not yet ready to call the stepper drivers an upgrade until more details come out. Different yes- but again, the marketing fluff is so vague, it's sad and pathetic. The current TMC2100 is already 256 microsteps in marketing speak. Yes, A4988s were use for Z and the extruders, so you could refer to an upgrade of them to TMC2100 or equiv- but is that really that substantial of an upgrade? Again, if we already have 256 microsteps for XY now- what's really being said????? The processor speed is literally just bragging rights. How that equates to any tangible printing quality or speed gain is all firmware and architecture dependent. Yes, faster is better, but to put a $ value on what that means is beyond vague and unproven. I'm not saying don't buy it, I'm saying don't make that your primary decision point. I'd love to be wrong on this point, really, that's nothing but good for you if i'm wrong, you get this great new upgrade and I get egg on my face.

Power outage second generation? I have to question how much of that is firmware update VS actual hardware change? What is really that different about it? If it's supposed to be a selling point, shouldn't that be far better explained?


Both firmware and hardware have been updated.
Previously we have a limited IO speed bottleneck, so we could not innovate in the software level. We redesign hardware of the logic board, so we could enable high throughput IO operation. Now with the new firmware we are able to implement some more complex and detailed communication between the host and the motion board. So we could finally remove the battery.

For us, Raise3D will never be a company that only plays with specs. Back to N series, the reason why we chose TMC2100 was not only due to its 256 micro-steps, but also the low noise level and high print quality. Now we are starting with the new platform and new drivers because we know the benefits it can bring to users. With an optimized motion planning algorithm, 256 micro-steps can generate much more accurate and sharp surface quality. Besides, with the help of a more advanced acceleration control, the printer can run at much faster moving speed and volume speed.
We previous limited the outline speed in the profile of N series to be 25mm/s to balance between the printing speed and quality. Now, even the printing profiles of Pro2 series are still under tuning, the result is so far much better than before. These days, we are running testing prints with 0.25mm layer thickness under 80mm/s as default outline speed. The result so far is good.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Jetguy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:21 pm

Thanks for all the details and answer what questions you could that you chose not to release.
To kind of sum it up:
Camera system- sorry, I think users will be less than happy with this compared to external IP cameras and much more feature rich solutions.
I do understand the security concerns (someone using the camera to spy on a user or workplace) but somehow a better compromise needs met (in other words, get the security in place (login and authentication allowing transfer). Again, to me, users are simply going to find the camera not as useful and feature rich as they may want.

Filament detection and workarounds= fail. Create shorter segments?? Breaking segments is visible in a single wall print- most likely where you are printing a large object with a big flat face (hence why the segment would be long). It's just not a plan. Please tell me this will not be enabled by default in Ideamaker as that would wreak havoc with current owners. In other words, a menu and to enable it warns the user of potential issues, disabled by default and requires a conscience user action to enable. Again, I'd have trouble telling anyone that's a good workaround. Instant pause has problems too, cannot happen in the middle of a segment unless there is some serious low level code happening in the motion planner. Bottom line is for some prints, probably works fine and catches before you are actually out of filament and make a line without extruding. On the other hand, there are also absolutely prints that will run out before pause stops in time. You hope that's on infill and not the perimeter. Single wall vase mode- best of luck.

HEPA air filter= a gimmick at best. Sorry, that's just my opinion, but the size alone, I just shake my head.

Again, everything else is great.
Sure, I'm upset you cannot share more about the electronics or firmware. I'm not happy about not releasing the source code as no way to even peer review the code. I think holding back the stepper driver information, that makes zero sense and only just hurt you on potential sales.
But I do think there is a lot of work and upgrade done to the control system and electronics= and that helps justify the value added.
I think the Bondtech extruder is the no brainer.
I think the bed is also good and strong selling point to new customers.
I'm still on the fence on the moving nozzles. It's like what I said did not register with you. I think it works fine, may be the next best thing ever. However, there is a disconnect between the user you are marketing to skill wise, and ability to properly assemble a V2 hotend which has not changed in construction details. Again, users break them now, they will break them on the Pro2 series as well.
Simply put, while I and other technical experienced users like discrete components and assemblies, the novice user, this can be and is proven to be one area where tech support and damage rack up. You want to sell to a different user, and yet this is one area where change is needed for that market.

Last, I'm tempted to call you out on speeds. If the basic gantry mechanics stayed the same, and the change here is electronics and firmware, yes, you may have sent gcode at 80mm/s perimeter. Like I've said hundreds of times, that's like a speed limit sign in both the max speed and desired speed- but absolutely says nothing to the actual mechanical speed. You might have improved and printed faster, but real speed and set speed are not the same thing. Again, not saying you could not have made an improvement, I'm saying let's not kid each other and lie, that number and it's actual mechanical movement value are not the same. And really, I'm saying a negative statement here, so if I'm wrong, then great for you and egg on my face. If I'm right, then users printing massive objects will see a speed increase, but not at the scale the numbers indicate. 25mm/s to 80mm/s is more than 3X faster, but the print is not 3X shorter in time.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:18 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:The new firmware is a totally different firmware from Marlin, developed by ourselves, using different motion planning algorithms. With the new firmware, Pro2 series printers can run much faster compared with N series printers which are able to fully use the computation power of the FPU. It is optimized for float calculation and 256 micro-steps drive mode.


Hi Vicky, by how many percent faster? Has your company done speed comparison test?

As for the Pro2 and Pro2+, is the different only the height of the build volume like the N2 and N2+?

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 05, 2018 7:36 am

newraiseuser wrote:Hi Vicky, by how many percent faster? Has your company done speed comparison test?


The final profiles for Pro2 series is still under tuning. By now, the estimated improvements on printing speed will be around 30%. And we will release bigger size nozzle for Pro2 series later, which will bring more improvements.

newraiseuser wrote:
As for the Pro2 and Pro2+, is the different only the height of the build volume like the N2 and N2+?


The difference between Pro2 and Pro2 Plus is the printing volume. The Plus printing volume is 100% bigger than the standard size.
Actually the build volume of Pro2 is already quite impressive, so it may fullfil the needs of most users.

Pro2
Build Volume (W×D×H):
- Single Extrusion: 12×12×11.8 in / 305×305×300 mm
- Dual Extrusion: 11×12×11.8 in / 280×305×300 mm

Pro2 Plus
Build Volume (W×D×H):
- Single Extrusion: 12×12×23.8 in / 305×305×605 mm
- Dual Extrusion: 11×12×23.8 in / 280×305×605 mm

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Casale8 » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:17 pm

................Still no autoshut-off feature?
-SCC
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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Magic-Goat » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:26 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Jetguy wrote:#7 since the photo shows new nozzles that do appear slightly different than current nozzles, with hard coated versions also be sold (AKA V2H)?


New nozzle is optimized for high volume speed printing, not the same as N series’ nozzles.
We will release harden type later.


Are the threads the same so that the olsson ruby can still be used? I was looking at recommending this for my work and this is a pretty important feature for us?

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby newraiseuser » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:35 pm

Thanks Vicky.

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Re: Just Released N2 Pro

Postby Noren » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:38 pm

Casale8 wrote:................Still no autoshut-off feature?

I really need this as well. Don’t want to sleep with the printer on. But sometimes I fall asleep before it’s finished. And then my son is mad about the fan noise when he wakes up in the middle of the night and can’t fall backs to sleep.


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