One extruder or dual-extruder?

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
newraiseuser
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:48 pm

Hello, I have used 3D printers for a few years. Except for the uPrint SE, the rest were with one extruder only. I read that users using the dual-extruder version of Raise3D's printers have issues of one nozzle hitting the object being built. I can get by with one extruder now but I may need a dual-extruder in case I want to print different colors or use water solvable support. In this case, is it recommended to buy a one extruder system or a dual-extruder system? In the latter case, if I don't need two extruder for the time being, can I just remove the nozzle for the 2nd extruder (to prevent it from hitting the object being printed) and have the printer pretends that there is only one extruder? Do I need to change some settings? Is it easy to do it?

EldRick
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:55 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby EldRick » Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:02 pm

...can I just remove the nozzle for the 2nd extruder (to prevent it from hitting the object being printed) and have the printer pretend that there is only one extruder?

Yes.

Timber Haint
Posts: 42
Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:24 pm

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby Timber Haint » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:37 pm

What I did was go with the single extruder on my original N2 plus, BECAUSE I knew, eventually I would upgrade to the Bondtech extruder made for the N series and it is a dual extruder. If you have no plans of doing the Bondtech mod then get the dual. As you alluded to you can remove the second nozzle and have no issues.

Bondtech Mod
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1709

newraiseuser
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Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:50 am

Timber Haint wrote:What I did was go with the single extruder on my original N2 plus, BECAUSE I knew, eventually I would upgrade to the Bondtech extruder made for the N series and it is a dual extruder. If you have no plans of doing the Bondtech mod then get the dual. As you alluded to you can remove the second nozzle and have no issues.

Bondtech Mod
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1709


Thanks. Is it highly recommended to have the Bondtech extruder? Does it has the issue of the 2nd nozzle hitting the object in print? What are the pros and cons of having it? Will the actual print volume be smaller? Will I void the warranty?

Timber Haint
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Joined: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:24 pm

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby Timber Haint » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:37 pm

I wouldn't say it's "highly" recommended and I wouldn't even say you HAVE to. My stock extruder works fine, but I feel like the benefits (from reading that post) are worth the change.

You can read that post to see what people are saying about the benefits. Not sure about voiding the warranty.

bigrob007
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Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:06 pm

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby bigrob007 » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:53 pm

I had the problem with one of the nozzles hitting when i first set my n2 dual up. the printer does come with a shim and setting the nozzle height is pretty easy. you just have to pop the hot end fans off to get to a set screw on either side and loosen the larger screw on the front of the print head. there is one for each nozzle. installing a bondtech upgraded dual extruder will not affect the height of the nozzles as the extruders themselves are on the cold end. the stock extruders have trouble with third party filaments if they are softer than the r3d filament. the bondtech upgrade has smaller, lighter, and stronger motors. it also has a much better grip from dual gear driven feeder wheels.

zemlin
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Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby zemlin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:29 pm

I've been doing the 3D printer thing for a couple years. I bought an N2+ in October and an N2 earlier this month. Both the machines I bought are dual extruder, even though I've only messed with dual materials a couple times. It's a $200 option, and if you bought the parts for a full hot-end you'd be over $100.

I've learned how to print with support from the same material so it builds well and breaks away easy enough. Printing with a second nozzle adds a host of factors that make printing trickier, but if you buy a dual machine, you have that option.

I'm a big fan of the Bondtech direct dual upgrade. I bought it for each of my printers the day I ordered the machine. With my N2 I ran one print with the machine in the out-of-the-box configuration and then swapped the extruder.

The Bondtech upgrade only replaces the extruder drive that pushes the filament into the hot end. You keep the factory hot-end and nozzle setup so it has on impact on the build volume.

Basic pros/cons
- half the weight of the factory extruder drive.
- More reliable filament drive method
- better surface finish of printed parts

newraiseuser
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Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:11 pm

Thanks zemlin. In that thread, people talked about the weight a lot. So, what is good about having a lighter extruder?

zemlin
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Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby zemlin » Mon Feb 19, 2018 5:25 pm

newraiseuser wrote:Thanks zemlin. In that thread, people talked about the weight a lot. So, what is good about having a lighter extruder?

The gantry carrying the extruder is capable of fast, abrupt movements while printing. There are also a lot of components in the system that can act as springs causing resonance and small over-travels. These will manifest in your print as 'Ringing' or 'Ghosting' around sharp or small features. You might also see over-shoot on sharp corners. Adjusting the dynamics of speed, acceleration, and jerk will allow you to control/minimize the impact, but reducing the moving mass will also help a lot. It allows you to print faster while maintaining print quality. There is also some droop in the gantry rods from the weight of the extruder. Lighter weight helps there too.

Another thing that can happen when you start pushing speeds up is the steppers can skip. This will result in an offset in the model. Reducing the moving mass also reduces the chances of skipped steps.

FWIW, JERK as used on 3D printers is not the derivative of acceleration. In this case it has to do with the step-size of the velocity changes. Smaller jerk values soften the movements but increase build times. I use smaller jerk and acceleration values for perimeters, larger values for infill and support where appearances don't matter much.

newraiseuser
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Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:12 am

Thanks for the info.

If I buy the dual-extruder version of the N2/N2+ and do not use the 2nd nozzle for the time being, what do I need to do to make the machine to think like it were a one-extruder version? Just remove the 2nd nozzle and not to feed in filament into the 2nd extruder?

zemlin
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Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby zemlin » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:48 pm

I have removed the second nozzle and just don't specify anything for the right extruder. On my old printer I would use both, but just one at a time - I had different diameter nozzles in them. The N2 nozzles aren't as easy to adjust, so I haven't used them that way. I'm thinking about designing a quick-change setup for nozzle heights though.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:03 am

Please leave the thermocouple of second nozzle to be connected onto extruder board after removing the second nozzle or second hotend. Or you may meet temperature error.
If you want to totally remove all the components of second nozzle, you can flash single-extruder version of firmware to your machine which will ignore the temperature of second nozzle.
If you want to keep the other parts of second nozzle, there is no need to make the machine to think it as a one-extruder version. Just slice with only extruder for printing, then only one nozzle will be active during printing.

Roy93
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Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby Roy93 » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:02 am

If the heights of the left and right nozzles are exactly matched, no problem arises.
It is troublesome to readjust by removing the nozzle.
I use nozzles of 0.2 mm to the left and 0.4 mm to the right, and I use it by switching. It's very convenient.

newraiseuser
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:01 am

zemlin wrote:I've been doing the 3D printer thing for a couple years. I bought an N2+ in October and an N2 earlier this month. Both the machines I bought are dual extruder, even though I've only messed with dual materials a couple times. It's a $200 option, and if you bought the parts for a full hot-end you'd be over $100.

I've learned how to print with support from the same material so it builds well and breaks away easy enough. Printing with a second nozzle adds a host of factors that make printing trickier, but if you buy a dual machine, you have that option.

I'm a big fan of the Bondtech direct dual upgrade. I bought it for each of my printers the day I ordered the machine. With my N2 I ran one print with the machine in the out-of-the-box configuration and then swapped the extruder.

The Bondtech upgrade only replaces the extruder drive that pushes the filament into the hot end. You keep the factory hot-end and nozzle setup so it has on impact on the build volume.

Basic pros/cons
- half the weight of the factory extruder drive.
- More reliable filament drive method
- better surface finish of printed parts



So if I don't print two colors at the same time nor use water solvable support, I just buy the single extruder version and when I need to use two extruders later, I just get the Bondtech upgrade, an additional hot-end and nozzle. Am I correct? Is this a good way to go?

zemlin
Posts: 380
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby zemlin » Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:50 am

newraiseuser wrote:So if I don't print two colors at the same time nor use water solvable support, I just buy the single extruder version and when I need to use two extruders later, I just get the Bondtech upgrade, an additional hot-end and nozzle. Am I correct? Is this a good way to go?

i haven't dealt with a single extruder version, so i don't know what a conversion to dual would involve. Probably a stepper driver on the motion control board. I don't know if the wiring and/or the breakout board at the extruder change. Firmware too.

newraiseuser
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Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:53 am

Could anybody who upgraded from single extruder version to Bondtech dual extruder version please advice on whether I should get a single extruder version or a dual extruder version?

EldRick
Posts: 355
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:55 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby EldRick » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:15 am

If the heights of the left and right nozzles are exactly matched, no problem arises.

Yeah, until you use a filament like PLA, which has a tendency to curl upward on corners and overhangs, and the curled part then hits the other nozzle and knocks the piece off the buildplate, or at best, simply drags lines across the flat tops of pieces.

I've personally been 3D printing for three years, and have yet to find any need at all for a second nozzle. I had hoped to use the second nozzle for a different size, but it's a PIA on the Raise3D to reset the height between two nozzles, so that's out the window. I'm presently waiting for Bondtech to release a single-nozzle version of their extruder, to down-convert my dual machine.

jon_bondy
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Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby jon_bondy » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:38 pm

I have been running a dual extruder N2+ for about a month, printing PLA, PC, and T-Glase, and only using the left extruder. I've never noticed a problem where the right/unused extruder bumped into anything. Perhaps I have been lucky so far. I had intended to use the dual extruders for PLA and soluble support, but the particular PLA that I wish to print with will not work with the all metal hot end on the N2+.

newraiseuser
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:17 pm

If I buy the single extruder version and later upgrade to the Bondtech dual-extruder version, do I need to change the motion control board and other hardware of the N2+ as well?

newraiseuser
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:58 am

Re: One extruder or dual-extruder?

Postby newraiseuser » Sun Mar 11, 2018 7:36 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Please leave the thermocouple of second nozzle to be connected onto extruder board after removing the second nozzle or second hotend. Or you may meet temperature error.
If you want to totally remove all the components of second nozzle, you can flash single-extruder version of firmware to your machine which will ignore the temperature of second nozzle.
If you want to keep the other parts of second nozzle, there is no need to make the machine to think it as a one-extruder version. Just slice with only extruder for printing, then only one nozzle will be active during printing.



I only need a single-extruder now but I may need dual-extruder later. Not sure yet. Considering the additional shipping cost to outside the USA in case I buy the 2nd set of components from Raise3D later, I have two options:

1. Buy the single-extruder version now and if needed later, get the Bontech dual-extruder upgrade as well as a 2nd set of nozzle/hotend/thermocopler, etc. from Raise3D later.

2. Buy the dual-extruder version and remove the second nozzle and/or hotend without messing with the firmware. When I need to use dual-extruder, buy the Bontech dual-extruder upgrade.

In terms of upgrading, which option is simpler? Is it correct that if I choose Option 2, I don't need to cut the cables to adjust the lengths?


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