Printer failure

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:40 pm

Good find !!

I'll look into this at IGUS first. I'd prefer the PUR Version, because it has 10 Kelvin higher end temperature capability.

The connector, well, i don't know how they're called in english, but a quick search gives me this example ... https://www.eve.de/econ-connect-din-416 ... -pv14.html , there's a link to download the datasheet.

Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:06 pm

Jetguy had this link to Amazon in another thread ... https://www.amazon.com/Pc-Accessories-C ... B00Q8ENQSK

Raess
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Raess » Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:22 pm

Nice thanks. :) If we are making new cables. would it be good to integrate jetguys resistors mod into this somehow?
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newraiseuser
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Re: Printer failure

Postby newraiseuser » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:40 am

So, what caused the cable issue? What shall a new user do to avoid such problem upon receiving the machine?

Jetguy
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Jetguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:20 am

would it be good to integrate jetguys resistors mod into this somehow?


The key to doing that is the resistors must be at the mainboard side of the connector. Putting them past the point where the cable flexes nearer the extruder head breakout basically makes them null and void.

So, what caused the cable issue? What shall a new user do to avoid such problem upon receiving the machine?

IMG_1741.jpg

#1 any machine on the 3D printing market with a set of wires to the moving extruder head can have a failure from flexing. The head moves millions of times, that's opportunity for wear and tear. Put another way, you should expect the cable to fail. Be glad when it lasts as long as it does. Yes, under ideal conditions we expect it to last a relatively long time before failure (my oldest machine is 2 years old without a cable failure). Yes, absolutely, a minor defect on assembly of the cable chain and minor details could lead to premature failure. Nobody wants that to happen but short of taking the entire cable system apart, putting it together "your way" and knowing you did it could prevent this failure as pictured in this thread. Absolutely, if Raise 3D assembled it and contributed to early failure, they should be covering cable replacement.

#2 Given what I just said in #1, this is why the OTHER discussion is happening. Nobody wants a cable failure. That said, it can and WILL happen. So this is why the more recent discussions on the modification and safety board keep popping up. It's one thing to have a cable failure. It's whole different ballgame when a failure is NOT immediately detected within seconds of the failure. This cable failure can and DID in this very thread lead to a confirmed thermal runaway condition where the extruder did shoot over the setpoint temp and triggered a thermal runaway protection only after the cable flexed and made contact again.

So the real question that needs to be asked is are new printers shipping with either the mainboard resistor mod or the new safety board and cable set as a "standard feature" from the factory?

Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:13 am

Jetguy wrote:
...
So the real question that needs to be asked is are new printers shipping with either the mainboard resistor mod or the new safety board and cable set as a "standard feature" from the factory?


I second Jetguy's latest question !!!!!

Should we invoke the resistor mod on the main board side ?

Absolutely, but my search didn't turn up specifics. I guess is, two resistors, each parallel to the E0 and E1 sensor wires to ensure there's a given resistance any time. What size ? Which Pin's would they attach to ?

I for one wouldn't want to solder on the main board. I think i would fab up a setup which goes into the connector directly in the main board with short lead, put the resistors somehow into the wires and the go into a socket with a locking connector where the new connector goes in.

Maybe Jetguy can give us a link to the specifics of his Mod ?

Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:38 am

:D :D :D

Well, i found crimp wire pins and connector instead of ribbon cable connectors, now it's a definate go for me.

If we can get information about which and where the resistors go, i'll crimp them right into the pin with the wire (needs another pin, but that's a no brainer, just order the next bigger pin 2111) and be one happy camper.

https://www.tme.eu/de/details/mx-90142- ... 01420014/#

https://www.tme.eu/de/details/mx-90119- ... 01192121/#

Jetguy
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Jetguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:21 pm

The resistor mod at the mainboard. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3524&p=18990&hilit=resistor+mod#p18989
The resistors are just pulling the sense lines up towards 5V. That way, when the cable comes unplugged, the reported temp shoots to near 500C (the firmware is using 10mv = 1C). Again, we pull up the pin so that in failure, the reported temp is higher than any set temp a user could set so the heater is instantaneously off, even before any additional safety firmware functions kick in. The ribbon cable and pin sockets have 5V pins right next to the sense pins making this a very easy and simple connection.
Motion board connectors safety mod schematic.jpg

Example of a resistor mod to backside of mainboard
DSC04778.JPG


Also note, again, the reason for asking is Raise 3D is already aware. They already built a plug in device for the mainboard to solve this. The question is, are you users getting your hands on them and are new printers shipping with them installed? It's currently in the store bundled with the filament runout detector https://www.raise3d.com/collections/acc ... ent-sensor
thermal-protector_filament-runout-sensor.jpg

Again, this device raise 3D created does basically the same thing and installs at the mainboard. It has 2 each 1 meg resistors doing the exact same thing.
2016-07-07_21-28-56.jpg

markings.jpg
markings.jpg (18.68 KiB) Viewed 882 times

Jetguy
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Jetguy » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:36 pm

Or done using 2 very tiny surface mount resistors, one between the T0 and 5V pin, an the other one for T1 with a small jumper wire.
This is one way the factory could do the mod to existing boards.
Attachments
SMT resistor mod.jpg

Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Sun Feb 11, 2018 12:53 pm

Jetguy, thank you so much for keeping us informed. I'll incorporate this Mod into the replacement wire i'm fabbing soon.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

I for one continue to ask myself why R3D is so tight lipped on the issue. Ok, their original design doesn't cut it,which is proven by now.

OK, there's an solution, obviously not found nor coming from them, but, however, shouldn't they be very interested in keeping all their machine in SAFE shape before someone's house is burned down ?

newraiseuser
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Re: Printer failure

Postby newraiseuser » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:43 pm

Doesn't modification of the board void warranty? I plan to buy the printer after I can convince myself and my family that I have found a good way to exhaust the fume from my room. I also want to know if the new ones have this issue fixed.

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Noren
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Noren » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:46 pm

newraiseuser wrote:Doesn't modification of the board void warranty? I plan to buy the printer after I can convince myself and my family that I have found a good way to exhaust the fume from my room. I also want to know if the new ones have this issue fixed.


If you have an air inlet in your wall in your room you can install a small fan for ventilation there. And use those flexible silver ventilation pipes to the printer.

newraiseuser
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Re: Printer failure

Postby newraiseuser » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:52 pm

Noren wrote:
newraiseuser wrote:Doesn't modification of the board void warranty? I plan to buy the printer after I can convince myself and my family that I have found a good way to exhaust the fume from my room. I also want to know if the new ones have this issue fixed.


If you have an air inlet in your wall in your room you can install a small fan for ventilation there. And use those flexible silver ventilation pipes to the printer.


Thanks but such modification is not possible. The best I can think of is to put on a temporarily window fan whenever I use the printer. Don't know how effective that could be in terms of sucking out the fume. Also not sure if putting the printer next to it would ruin the print quality.

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Noren
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Noren » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:17 pm

That doesn’t need any modification. That was my point. There are small ventilation fans that you can put in the ventilation tube. Just push it in when you use it. Remove it and roll it up and put in the closet than not in use.

Or you could install a hepafilter in the printer to take care of the bad particles. Like this.
https://www.atome3d.com/products/r-capo ... 0898688138

Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:28 am

Ok, parts for a replacement cable are under way. I opted for IGUS chain.flex 240.PUR, 14x0,25 cable and fitting pins.

newraiseuser
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Re: Printer failure

Postby newraiseuser » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:07 pm

Noren wrote:That doesn’t need any modification. That was my point. There are small ventilation fans that you can put in the ventilation tube. Just push it in when you use it. Remove it and roll it up and put in the closet than not in use.

Or you could install a hepafilter in the printer to take care of the bad particles. Like this.
https://www.atome3d.com/products/r-capo ... 0898688138


Thanks Noren. For the first suggestion, do you have some photos to illustrate the idea?

In regard to the link, is there an English version? I am not sure if they are selling a top cover with hepafilter. It seems that I may need to modify case of the printer to fit in that top cover.

Raess
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Raess » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:05 pm

@squenz Please upload pictures of this when you putting it together :D are you going to implement the resistor mod? I will also order this cable. what other part did you order?

@newraiseuser please start a new topic to discuss this. Please don't hijack topics to discuss things not related to the topic. thanks.
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Squenz
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Squenz » Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:27 pm

Of course i'll bring in the resistors. Easy peasy thing with Jetguy's advise. We all can't thank him enough for all he did and still does.

Other parts ? Well, i ordered the connector and pins from RS Online, the cable from IGUS, they both have everything in stock and it looks like things will come in tomorrow. The order quantity of connectors is 10, the Pins 100, so i have lots of spare to ruin during the process. Because of the quantities, it turns out not cheap in the end, but being a certified electrician and have seen a lot of bad things in my past, i don't want to get in ANY KIND OF HASSLE while printing and tackle the subject as soon as i can.

I can't live with the tought of leaving the machine printing over the night and go to bed and do not wake up anymore. Waking up with a failed print is OK, i can live with that, but if the extruder heater doesn't stop and things get set on fire in my home due a stupid chain of events, that's a absolute no-go. Just look up some vids about home fire during christmas, how fast these progress and a human sometimes can't stand a chance because burning furniture and fabrics expell very unhealthy fumes you inhale and just die in sleep before you even realize there's something very wrong.

Raess
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Raess » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:06 pm

Okej Nice :-) IF your are in the mood can you can also make one for me and I pay You for the materials + shipping + profit? :-)

I think its also good ide to make it 10cm longer to relive some tension at the head.
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Jetguy
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Re: Printer failure

Postby Jetguy » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:17 pm

At least on every Rais3D I have ever touched (all models) Raise 3D made the cable extra long and there is often a large amount just folded up in the bay area. Enough you could repair the bad end, pull stuff that has never flexed up and just crimp a new end on. Again, 2 recent N2 plus printers I just worked on for friends had a country mile of additional ribbon just tied up in the base near the PSU.

So basically, if making a new custom cable, if you take the old one out and made yours the same length, it already is extra long, by way more than 10cm.


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