TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

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NewbPilot
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:37 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Leakage or Ooze? Strings?

It is hard to totally avoid strings for flex filament.

Take a try of 40mm/s retraction speed and 1.5mm retraction amount.


i will try these settings on next print, but i have to figure out why walls peel apart or dont stick to other pieces. Too cool? too fast? wrong infill %? wrong layer height or flow rate?

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:03 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Leakage or Ooze? Strings?

It is hard to totally avoid strings for flex filament.

Take a try of 40mm/s retraction speed and 1.5mm retraction amount.

Vicky - i got SainSmart TPU to print fine - thank you.
My new roll of PolyFlex is giving me problems. I have had 4 times when it starts then stops and wont feed. I used eSun cleaning filament at 250, cleaned out, put it poly in at 230, got it to extrude, then as i start print it stops after a few minutes. Clean again, same thing. I just took it out, cleaned and am printing regular PLA at 215 now with no problems.

i even took plastic cover off the feeder and pushed metal rod in to ensure no issues, cleaning everytthing out of nozzle/hot end.

I saw Julia mention 245, but PolyFlex settings say 230/235. Is 245 too hot?

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Billucas
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Billucas » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:47 pm

Here what John ( from Raise3d support) answered me on this problem:

For flexible filament, please print it in left extruder.
Do you have the acrylic extruder cover installed? If not, please install.
There are 4 screws holding the motor and loose those you can adjust the gap.
Please take some pictures of the extruder gear. Also do not forget the clean the gear.
With Polyflex, 260 is too high. I would suggest to print at 220-230 and keep other things standard as in the default templates.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=712&start=20

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:36 pm

Billucas wrote:Here what John ( from Raise3d support) answered me on this problem:

For flexible filament, please print it in left extruder.
Do you have the acrylic extruder cover installed? If not, please install.
There are 4 screws holding the motor and loose those you can adjust the gap.
Please take some pictures of the extruder gear. Also do not forget the clean the gear.
With Polyflex, 260 is too high. I would suggest to print at 220-230 and keep other things standard as in the default templates.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=712&start=20


Thank you. I have all of those things, and printing at 230 (tried 235, then 245 per above) and it would clog each time. I swapped out to PLA and it's printing perfectly now. I reamed it out with the metal rod, i ran eSun cleaner through it. it would flow fine for a minute or two, then clog. i manually would pull the spool so it wasnt too much drag on the gears. I will swap back to TPU and test.

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Billucas
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Billucas » Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:58 pm

I think that is hard to print flexible filament with our extruder. For me, I have a lot of loading, unloading, jam, air printing...
Like you, I tried all what your saying. The TPU is less flexible than the Polyflex, so it is suppose to go better.
In addition of all you did, for me I think that " There are 4 screws holding the motor and loose those you can adjust the gap"
worked. Because I read that if there is a bad alignment for the flexible filament, it will roll around the extruder gear. Sometime
there is to much gap.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:43 am

First, please do not use the right extruder and please print flex filament without guiding tube.

Usually we suggest lower temperature instead of higher. Since you have tried 230, 235, 240 both not ok. I suggest try some lower temperature. Or you can share the pictures of melt tip of your filament here every time when you find air printing at different temperature.

The gear distance mention by Billucas is also a good point. When loading filament, try manually drag the filament. If it can be drag out from the gear very easily. That means the distance between feeding gear and bearing is too far.
You can loose the motor fixing screws and insert some shim into the left side of extruder motor to move the gear closer to the bearing. Like the following picture.
Extruder Shim.jpg



Here is something modified by Michael:

To ensure tight connection between the feed gear & filament. Place 0.62mm x 12.7mm wide heat resistant shim between the left and right sides of the respective E0 (left) & E1 (right) stepper and the tall vertical filament extruder housing. Unload the filament, remove the clear cover, and then the 4 recessed socket head screws on the front side using 2.5mm hex key. This will slightly angle the feed gear closer to the v grooved bearing.

To make my shims, I used 4 layers of 0.155mm X 12.7mm nylon tape label from my Brady BMP-21 labeler.

During testing of the RIGHT(top) extruder, I could get a stronger grip on the filament with out the shim by unloading the filament, removing the clear filament feed cover, loosening the 4 metric socket heads, sliding the stepper as far as possible to the right as viewed from the front. While holding that position retighten those 4 bolts on the right extruder.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:34 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:First, please do not use the right extruder and please print flex filament without guiding tube.

Usually we suggest lower temperature instead of higher. Since you have tried 230, 235, 240 both not ok. I suggest try some lower temperature. Or you can share the pictures of melt tip of your filament here every time when you find air printing at different temperature.

The gear distance mention by Billucas is also a good point. When loading filament, try manually drag the filament. If it can be drag out from the gear very easily. That means the distance between feeding gear and bearing is too far.
You can loose the motor fixing screws and insert some shim into the left side of extruder motor to move the gear closer to the bearing. Like the following picture.
IMG_6049.JPG



Here is something modified by Michael:

To ensure tight connection between the feed gear & filament. Place 0.62mm x 12.7mm wide heat resistant shim between the left and right sides of the respective E0 (left) & E1 (right) stepper and the tall vertical filament extruder housing. Unload the filament, remove the clear cover, and then the 4 recessed socket head screws on the front side using 2.5mm hex key. This will slightly angle the feed gear closer to the v grooved bearing.

To make my shims, I used 4 layers of 0.155mm X 12.7mm nylon tape label from my Brady BMP-21 labeler.

During testing of the RIGHT(top) extruder, I could get a stronger grip on the filament with out the shim by unloading the filament, removing the clear filament feed cover, loosening the 4 metric socket heads, sliding the stepper as far as possible to the right as viewed from the front. While holding that position retighten those 4 bolts on the right extruder.


Distance of feed gear and filament not an issue. cant pull it out. It feeds Sainsmart TPU perfectly. Just printed a 2 hour TPU Pikachu at 90% fill, nearly perfectly.
IMG_6051.JPG


Switched from TPU to Polyflex, loaded at 235C, extruded about 15CM, then it stopped feeding. Unloaded, used the metal rod and cleared nozzle, only a TINY bit of PolyFlex came out, loaded at 220c, extruded about 6cm, stopped feeding. Unloaded and here is what the end of the filament looked like.
IMG_6049.JPG

I actually took a video on my GoPro of the 2nd feeding and stoppage mentioned above, but i dont know what it shows other than the filament feeding, extruding a little, then not feeding.
i am sure there is nothing in the hot-end to block the PolyFlex.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:07 am

Please try 225, 230.
Flexible filament is very sensitive to temperature. 5 degree can make difference.

Observe the loading process, is that very little extruding at the start.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:53 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Please try 225, 230.
Flexible filament is very sensitive to temperature. 5 degree can make difference.

Observe the loading process, is that very little extruding at the start.

Ok Vicky. I will do scientific process tonight, controlling all variables. At least Sainsmart TPU is printing nicely ;)

Maybe just a bad day for me, I was printing 12 Pikachus in R3D Premium PLA (205/55) and three of them popped off the bed at hour 6 of 12. I had bed leveled, printing on Buildtak. I know it says it can print on 40 bed or no heated, but for me, if it's not 65, it doesnt stick.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Aug 19, 2016 12:53 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Please try 225, 230.
Flexible filament is very sensitive to temperature. 5 degree can make difference.

Observe the loading process, is that very little extruding at the start.

The video i took shows it loads very nicely, it starts to extrude fine for about 5-6cm, then it just stops feeding. I'll do more video tests tonight. or tomorrow, i think my son wants his 12 Pika's first :)

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Jetguy » Fri Aug 19, 2016 1:14 pm

You don't need more video tests, this is exactly what is expected with flexible filament.
If you are using the stock filament feeder section, you must adjust the drive gear to v-groove distance to properly grip flexible filament.
If you fail to do that, then when extrusion pressure increases, the feeder can no longer grip and push the filament as required. This is true of all filament types, but even more so for flexible filaments.

You have a number of choices:
You can just loosen the motor mounting screws, hold the motor nearer the bearing side and tighten the screws. That has a limited amount of adjustment. This is the first stage of adjustment.

You can place a shim of folded paper or other thin material under the motor face to effectively angle the motor shaft nearer the V-groove bearing for more pressure or grip. This was a Raise 3D "official" recommended adjustment

You can change the drive gear to an aftermarket one with sharper teeth for more bite
https://www.3dp2go.com/38-teeth-steel-e ... ca2ns13t35

You can upgrade to either a Bondtech or other feeder upgrade http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits ... ybrid.html or http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits ... 3d-n1.html

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:28 pm

Thank you, again, Jetguy!
Just so I understand, it's expected that Sainsmart TPU will extrude and print perfectly for 2+ hour prints, but swapping it out for PolyFlex gives me this extrusion issue? Is that because the Sainsmart TPU is a different chemistry, even when being a flexible filament?

I actually met up with you on the Facebook Wanhao Di3 forum, and believe i ordered those gears from your recommendation there. My Wanhao died about a day after that, but I still have the gears, i ordered 2 coincidentally. Since they're the same, I can swap those out, hopefully easily.

I will need to look at the printer when I get home, to make sure I understand the paper/shim process until I can get the teeth or upgrade to the Bondtech. As a newbie here, the last thing I want to do is make a mistake causing more damage.

Thanks again!

Jetguy wrote:You don't need more video tests, this is exactly what is expected with flexible filament.
If you are using the stock filament feeder section, you must adjust the drive gear to v-groove distance to properly grip flexible filament.
If you fail to do that, then when extrusion pressure increases, the feeder can no longer grip and push the filament as required. This is true of all filament types, but even more so for flexible filaments.

You have a number of choices:
You can just loosen the motor mounting screws, hold the motor nearer the bearing side and tighten the screws. That has a limited amount of adjustment. This is the first stage of adjustment.

You can place a shim of folded paper or other thin material under the motor face to effectively angle the motor shaft nearer the V-groove bearing for more pressure or grip. This was a Raise 3D "official" recommended adjustment

You can change the drive gear to an aftermarket one with sharper teeth for more bite
https://www.3dp2go.com/38-teeth-steel-e ... ca2ns13t35

You can upgrade to either a Bondtech or other feeder upgrade http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits ... ybrid.html or http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits ... 3d-n1.html

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:28 pm

NewbPilot wrote:
Maybe just a bad day for me, I was printing 12 Pikachus in R3D Premium PLA (205/55) and three of them popped off the bed at hour 6 of 12. I had bed leveled, printing on Buildtak. I know it says it can print on 40 bed or no heated, but for me, if it's not 65, it doesnt stick.


Actually, we are printing PLA with over 60.
If it is a really large print, we will also add glue for better adhesion.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:34 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
NewbPilot wrote:
Maybe just a bad day for me, I was printing 12 Pikachus in R3D Premium PLA (205/55) and three of them popped off the bed at hour 6 of 12. I had bed leveled, printing on Buildtak. I know it says it can print on 40 bed or no heated, but for me, if it's not 65, it doesnt stick.


Actually, we are printing PLA with over 60.
If it is a really large print, we will also add glue for better adhesion.


I seem to have an issue where my front of bed wont stick but middle and back will. It is probably the buildtak - though ive never really printed up there.

Anyway - Finally got polyflex to print. i had to go up to 260 .. i had stopped about 250 last time. I finally went for it, and it extruded nicely. I have default settings so feedrate is 98 per the PolyFLex profile, printing 0.25mm height at 30mm/s retraction was 30mm/s and 1.5mm (i may have done 1.25 and didnt like it so next was at 1.5mm and similar stringing)

IMG_6147.JPG


Glad i didnt need to add shims or change parts. just heat the nozzle more. I may try 255 instead of 260 to see if a little cooler is less stringing. What do you recommend for retraction?


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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:28 am

Since your extruding is not good, I suggest do not increase the retraction a lot.
The strings are due to high temperature. 260C for polyflex is abnormal.

Such high temperature may due to resistance inside.
I suggest you replace a nozzle and disassemble the throat tube to check whether there is something inside.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:55 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:Since your extruding is not good, I suggest do not increase the retraction a lot.
The strings are due to high temperature. 260C for polyflex is abnormal.

Such high temperature may due to resistance inside.
I suggest you replace a nozzle and disassemble the throat tube to check whether there is something inside.

Interesting. Ok Vicky - i can look into that. I will have to order a new nozzle. I did heat and push the metal rod through the hot end manually to purge anything inside.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:55 am

Since the inner diameter of throat tube is 2.0mm, and the diameter of metal rod is 1.5mm. So there should be some gap between the tube and metal rod.

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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby NewbPilot » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:19 pm

Not thrilled with the idea of tearing down the printer - i decided to work on the Sainsmart TPU settings first.

1st pic is 240 with 20mms/1.2mm retraction.
2nd pic is 235 with 25mms/1.2mm retraction
3rd pic is 230 with 28mms/1.5mm retraction
4th is 225 with 30mms/1.5mm retraction (on the right side.. very similar to 3rd)
5th pic is the front of the piece, looks really nice for 0.25 layer height

I am going to go for the 40mm/s that Vicky mentioned previously ... i will try to stay at 1.5mm and 220 degrees. The front, bottom and top of the piece are really clean. it's just the inside and cross from piece to piece stringing now. since the tops and sides look ok, i am going to th ink it's not a clog or issue other than just settings - but please, if i am wrong, guide me - i still know nothing :)
IMG_6192.JPG


IMG_6191.JPG


IMG_6195.JPG


IMG_6196.JPG


IMG_6201.JPG

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Billucas
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Re: TPU FILAMENT PROBLEM WITH EXTRUDER

Postby Billucas » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:49 pm

Try, if you didn't , '' Avoid traveling through holes'' to stay infill inside your part and let us know please.
With flexible filament, I had more success to print each part alone, to avoid stringing between each on them.
If not possible, we can put a higher speed on x-y deplacement, like 125mm/s. Thank you for sharing.


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