Clear cover, Warping and PLA

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jerteach
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Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:14 am

Any suggestions for reducing warping with very large but thin prints? I am still using the default "Speed N2 PLA" settings with raft but adjusted the hot end height to about 0.15 mm from the standard 0.25 mm and I put the cover back on to slow cooling, it seemed to work. I was thinking of using a brim with the raft, does anyone have any other suggestions?


P.S. Why is it suggested to leave the cover off for PLA? I assume it gets too hot, but what effect does that have on the print? I was printing in a reasonably cold room, so heat dissipation was not a problem for my situation.
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:42 am

First is the distance between nozzle and build plate. Normally we recommend under 0.2mm. If it doesn't work well for you, you can decrease the value a little. Maybe 0.1 or 0.15.
Second is increase bed temperature. Default is 40C, you can increase some, maybe 50C, 60C, for PLA, both ok.

Normally PLA needs better cooling conditions to become solid well. If with the cover in your cold room, doesn't affect your printing result, you can keep it. But do no install the fan duct bottom cover.

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jmp
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jmp » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:44 am

Your issue is probably bed leveling and possible rod sag. I have printed several 300x300 flat PLA pieces (no raft) but it has to be dialed in perfectly, and may be impossible if you are running a stock machine. The original extruder is so heavy that with rod bowing it is pretty much impossible to have a similar gap in the center and the edges, the Bondtech is much lighter and doesn't bow the rods nearly as much. Having the bed leveling upgrade is pretty much required if you want to get this amount of precision.

The door closed is helpful but the lid on isn't going to help much with warping and my cause heat creep issues with PLA.
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walshlg
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby walshlg » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:25 pm

personally, I think the head needs to be insulated especially with PLA

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jerteach
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:49 am

jmp wrote:The original extruder is so heavy that with rod bowing it is pretty much impossible to have a similar gap in the center and the edges, the Bondtech is much lighter and doesn't bow the rods nearly as much.


Great to know about MODS for the printer but I prefer to stay with the stock machine so that I have access to a relevant knowledge base.
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:51 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:But do no install the fan duct bottom cover.


Interesting. I will look for that. Where is it front, left, right, back?
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:45 am

This one.
1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg

If yours is a dual-extruder printer, it should be inside your accessory box by default.
If yours is a single-extruder printer, it should be under the fan duct by default.

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jerteach
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:10 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Normally PLA needs better cooling conditions to become solid well. If with the cover in your cold room, doesn't affect your printing result, you can keep it. But do no install the fan duct bottom cover.



I assume installing the fan duct bottom cover (mine were in the accessory box) reduces warping which is good but then you lose the ability to bridge as well, is that correct?
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jerteach
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:22 pm

To reduce warping I tried brim with raft which makes a lot of sense to me. (I also could just extend the raft a few more mm, which I will try next).

Can we adjust the distance the brim is from the raft? It looks like my distance from raft to brim is about 0.2 mm which unfortunately allows the raft to separate from the brim. I would like to set the raft to brim distance to 0mm . Can that be adjusted or at least put on a software upgrade wishlist?

Attached is my print with a short raft extension and a brim, but the raft is separating from the brim. (Note that the print was fine)
Attachments
brim.jpg
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jmp » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:54 am

jerteach wrote:To reduce warping I tried brim with raft which makes a lot of sense to me. (I also could just extend the raft a few more mm, which I will try next).

Can we adjust the distance the brim is from the raft? It looks like my distance from raft to brim is about 0.2 mm which unfortunately allows the raft to separate from the brim. I would like to set the raft to brim distance to 0mm . Can that be adjusted or at least put on a software upgrade wishlist?

Attached is my print with a short raft extension and a brim, but the raft is separating from the brim. (Note that the print was fine)


That is way more warping than you should be getting for that particular model on a raft. You mentioned that the height you have is .15mm, in the center I presume? What is the gap between the nozzle and the plate in the corners?
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jerteach
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:15 am

jmp wrote: That is way more warping than you should be getting for that particular model on a raft. You mentioned that the height you have is .15mm, in the center I presume? What is the gap between the nozzle and the plate in the corners?


Actually for this print since I was testing the raft with brim I had set the bed height back to 0.25 mm. The print was much better when I just had a raft and used 0.15 mm as the bed height.
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:41 am

We don't have an option to set distance between Brim and Raft. If you think 0 will be bettern, we can combine them two.
Currently I recommend you to increase the size of Raft directly.

The bottom cover is for blocking the cooling air to high temperature filament. High filament tends to shrink. Normally PLA doesn't have this matter.
Have you ever tried with higher bed temperature?

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jerteach
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:29 pm

Vicky@Raise3D wrote: Have you ever tried with higher bed temperature?


Has anyone in the Raise Community had good results with higher bed temperatures for printing PLA to reduce warping? The stock bed temperature is 40 degrees.
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:53 am

We have tried 60C in Winter, better than 40C.

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walshlg
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby walshlg » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:38 pm

I typically use 60C - the top of the buildplate seems to stay about 10C cooler than the set heated bed temp

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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby maugseros » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:09 pm

I find the same thing as Walshlg. I find the actual surface of the build plate to be about 10C cooler than the temperature you set it at.

I typically never had problem with smaller prints. It's only when I went to print larger parts that suddenly the raft would start to curl. Then the nozzle would start to strike the print where it had curled up.

With Hatchbox PLA, I eventually settled into a bed temperature to 70C, which gives me an actual bed surface temperature of about 60C. With that, I've not had any curling issues of the raft when printing PLA. This is with using stock the buildtak surface w/ no other treatment to it. Also I do not use the fan duct covers and I leave the lid off the top of the machine and leave the front and side doors open when printing PLA.

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jerteach
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:44 am

Thanks Walshlg and Maugseros. Great to be able to tap into your experience. I have an IR thermometer so I will take your ideas and test my bed temperature
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby jerteach » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:36 am

So I looked at the bed temperature with my IR thermometer. Looks like the 40 degrees C is fairly accurate

20170412_093523 - Copy.jpg




So I tried to use 50 degrees C bed temperature and I found the raft stuck very well to the bed.
In fact the raft stuck so well even with the bed height reasonably high (~ 0.3 mm) that I had to use two spades to get it off. One to lift the corner a bit and the other to squeeze under the raft.

20170412_100659.jpg



I also tried maugseros suggestion of 70 degrees C, but I found I was having some melt issues with the print. The IR print bed reading was only 63 degrees C

20170412_110443.jpg



On a really good note, I tried printing PLA at 235 degrees C and got a fairly good 50 mm bridge which I was not expecting, especially since Raise3D defaults PLA at 205 degrees C.
Attachments
Bridge 50mm PLA 235 C.jpg
Last edited by jerteach on Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
B.Sc (Chemistry), B.Ed (High School) Diploma Counselling
40 years coding. Teach: Robotics, Coding, Animation and 3D Printing. I research Music Notation
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Re: Clear cover, Warping and PLA

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:24 am

Not recommend to set too high temperature for PLA. Or plastic may not be stable at such temperature for long time using. It may be carbonized.


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