Bad adhesion of Buildtak

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RA1981
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Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby RA1981 » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:54 pm

Hi,

I've read about people having problems with Buildtak and removing the finished parts from it. For me, I've the problem that the material doesn't adhere well on some spots. The material curls up (using the filament which was included with the N2) on different points.
What I haven't figured out yet is if there's a way to get better adhesion again (e.g. cleaning). On a first look I thought it's some kind of warping, but even using the bottom fan blocks didn't help and since always the same spots are affected it doesn't seem to be general warping.

Are there any suggestion for refurbishing BuildTak or an alternative bed material?

Regards

ABH
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby ABH » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:53 pm

This happens to me also, that the BuildTak stops working.
I have had great success by sanding the BuildTak surface slightly with a grade 240 sandpaper. I use a flat sanding machine, but a hand sander will also work. Then I thoroughly clean off the fine dust using soap water. The BuildTak will work as new after that.
I have the impression that the BuildTak doesn't like ABS/ASA. After having printed items with ABS/ASA, what I normally don't do on BuildTak, then it's as if PLA sticks less to the BuildTak. This is only my feeling though, -I might be wrong.
I'm very careful not destroying the surface of my BuildTak. Therefore it lasts very long and the surface just need to be rejuvenated once in a while using the sanding process.

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redUFO
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby redUFO » Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:15 pm

What bed temps are you using?

I can't get nothing, and I mean nothing to stick to the buildtak unless I use a raft. But even then I put down quite a bit of elmers glue sticks. So you might want to get used to buying a 30 pack of elmers glue sticks as you'll use them left and right.

Also if my bed temp is not around 55c or higher parts don't stick well. I've had pretty good luck just putting down a good coat of Elmers and getting the bed temp over 55. Give that a try!
Maker of Star Wars stuff
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41 Spools of PLA ordered from Raise 3D.

RA1981
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby RA1981 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:52 am

Hi,

okay, I'll try the sandpaper.

My temperatures are 210°C for the nozzle and 80°C for the bed, currently using the yellow PLA filament which was included with the printer.
Sometimes I can also see that the first line doesn't stick to the bed, causing the line moving with the extruder. However, I check the Z-height adjustment every week with the 0.2mm feeler gauge, so this shouldn't be the problem.

That's why I think that the BuildTak is damaged in someway or at least needs to be refurbished. Anyway, I think I should replace the BuildTak with something that doesn't need to be always observed during the first layers - I want to print and not to sit in front of the printer observing the first layers ;)

Regards

ABH
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby ABH » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:07 pm

You cannot get anything to stick on any surface if you use the Raise3D recommendations of using a z-gap of 0.2 mm, at least not if your first layer height is 0.2 mm or below.

All slicer programs assume that there's 0 (zero) gap between the nozzle tip and the bed surface. The Z-position for printing the first layer will be set to x mm above the bed surface (Z home position), where x equals the height of the first layer. The amount of plastic extruded for the first layer will correspond to the slicers assumption of zero gap between the nozzle and the bed surface. The nominal volume of the extruded plastic will be exactly what corresponds to squishing the circular plastic profile from the nozzle into a rectangular profile of "layer height" times "extrusion width", i.e. it will correspond to the model being build with 100% plastic without any air between traces.

If there's a Z-gap in real life, either because you deliberately adjusted the nozzle-to-bed gap to something larger than 0, for example 0.1 mm or 0.2 mm (Raise3D recommendation is 0.2 mm), or because it's physically impossible to avoid an average gap between the nozzle and the bed surface because of a bending bed, then you have to apply some tricks in the 1'st layer printing parameters to be able to obtain bed adhesion and to avoid what looks like under-extrusion in the first many layers.

I have my Z-gap adjusted to 0.1 mm and despite this small gap I still like to do the following tricks to achieve close to 100% filling in the first printed layer:

In ideaMaker:
If the Z-gap is 0.1 mm, then set the first layer height to 0.2 mm and the first layer flow rate to 120 to 150%.
Simplify3D:
If the Z-gap is 0.1 mm, then set the first layer height to 0.2 mm and set Z-offset (G-Code tab) between -0.05 mm and -0.1 mm.

ABH
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby ABH » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:50 pm

I never used any extra glue or stuff on the BuildTak and I have excellent adhesion of the first layer print for PLA. For large items it's nearly too much adhesion as it's sometime difficult to remove the printed part from the bed.
I also never use rafts, as I like the nice surface I get from printing directly on the BuildTak with full volume filling :D
For ABS/ASA I use abs juice on kapton tape on glass. It gives extreemely good adhesion and a very nice surface of the printed parts.

RA1981
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby RA1981 » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:12 pm

Hi ABH,

for the adhesion over the whole part I think I've found a good setting in IdeaMaker. The first layer looks good, the problem is that only some regions of the first layer seem to have no good adhesion, which results in curling up. That's why I think the BuildTak surface has lost it's adhesion capability.

Regards

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Mecha_Monster
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby Mecha_Monster » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:39 pm

Clean the Buildtak with Isopropyl Alcohol.

Grease, dirt, dust, debris, etc. All that sticks on the surface and interfere with the adhesion. Even by touching the platform you deposit grease/oil of your hands on the plate. Clean it like it own you money, ensure that the height is correct, rise your buildplate temperature and try again :)

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walshlg
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby walshlg » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:30 pm

when buildtac goes it goes quickly. You may need a new sheet

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geekhands
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby geekhands » Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:04 pm

With the Raise PLA I've been cleaning the bed after each print with 70-90% Isopropyl Alcohol and a paper towel.
I pre-heat the bed to 60 Deg C for 3-5 mins prior to initiating a print. Retain the 60 Deg C throughout the print and keep the lid off.
I've noticed room temperature seems to affect things as well. So far I've been printing with the lid off and my best prints come when the room is about 70-72 Deg F. If the room temp drops it seems to have an impact.

Successfully printing has everything to do with environment. I may wind up printing with the lid on to gauge ambient room temperature.
You'll probably have to experiment to find your particular printers needs.

RA1981
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby RA1981 » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:17 pm

Hi,

I think I'll try a new bed surface and/or leveling the bed. In the meantime, I'll use PrintaFix spray. Until it seems that at least most of the problems are gone, only some small portions of the current BuildTak sections used still have no adhesion. So I'll also try to use the other sections.

Regards

C0sign
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby C0sign » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:24 am

I use hairspray, the purple one with the kangaroo....and it washes off with hot water

GEGE
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby GEGE » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:20 pm

I clean the Buildtak surface with Isopropyl Alcohol afetre evry rpint and it sticks as good as the 1st day on NEOFIL M-ABS or FORMFUTURA ASA, in fact ASA (Formfutura Appollo-X) stick far more that anything else I have.
Now I have a flexplate and removing the ASA printed parts is not an issue anymore.
However, to have POLYMAKER PC-PLUS , PC-MAX or NEOFIL PTE-G stick to it, I haven't figured it out yet, after a few mm in height, with the lid on, they become lose by themselves.

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Billucas
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Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby Billucas » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:13 pm

Like each of you, I have tested everything to make my prints stick on the bed without warping. I have the N2 Plus.
I mostly print with the ASA, ABS, PETG and flexible filaments. I also have to print big parts.
Like you know, it is really hard not to warp. Like some of you, I don't always have success with BuildTak.
So I tried many other options; and I don't really like to put Spray-net, Glue Stick, Blue Tape or ABS Slurry.
For small parts it works fine but for big print surfaces it is another challenge!
The bests solutions, mainly for ASA/ABS filaments(Nozzle250°C+Bed110°C);
I bought a Alu plate ( because I did not have a spare glass plate )
of dimensions 1/8" x 13.5" x 13.5". Not a lot of people are talking about "LokBuild" here for know, but it is much better than
BuildTak... And, I am not there resaler. I bought it on Amazon.ca, in Canada.
After some tests, I can tell the Raisers that it is working really well and I won't buy BuildTak again.
Also it is almost impossible for air bubbles to get trapped beneath the LokBuild surface.
LokBuild can be removed from the build plate cleanly in one piece and leaves no residue behind.
I directly had a reply from Lokbuild about the dimensions offered. In a month or so, they will offer a new dimension: 17" x 17".
This is a good news, I will cut it at my Aluminium spare plate dimension.
https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=bl_dp_s_web ... n=LokBuild
http://www.lokbuild.com/

Another good surface to buy is the famous PEI sheet. I bought one too on Amazon and glue this sheet on another spare
Aluminium plate, with 3M Brand spray adhesive. It was not working well for the ASA but it is perfect for the PETG; the first layer was sticking perfectly on that sheet. Otherwise, on the BuildTak, I had to put the Glue Stick on the surface before, if I wanted PETG to stick on the 3d printing bed surface...

I am very happy to have found a solution to the warping and wanted to share it! Because warping is a loosing time and money.
Like you, by writing these lines, I hope to help somebody having great time on their Raise3d printer.
I will put some pictures soon of the tests I've made. Sorry for my English, I am a french Canadian from Quebec!

The only important question: does it last after few prints?
Last edited by Billucas on Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rockman
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby Rockman » Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:50 am

I solved my BuildTak adhesion problems by removing it completely and switching to PEI sheet.... I will never go back.....

maugseros
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby maugseros » Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:41 pm

I've had really good luck with the Buildtak printing PLA.

I find that if I set the bed temperature to 70, this gives me an actual bed temperature of 60C (using a thermal gun to measure). At that temperature, I haven't had any prints curl from the bed during printing, and I haven't had any prints release during printing (except in a few special case instances where I was printing multiple parts that had tall thin flexible pieces where the extruder head started hitting some of them because they weren't all universallly the same hight as some pieces started flexing more than others. Just went back to printing one piece at a time and it wasn't an issue).

I print everything with a raft and I wipe down the buildtak with a micro fiber cloth after every part removal and before I print another part. So far so good, I haven't had any issues with the Buildtak at all.

When I've printed other filament (so far wood and metal), I just flipped the bed over and used green painters tape on the glass surface.

flexrc
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Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:21 pm

Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby flexrc » Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:02 am

From my experience it is better to turn buildtak down and to print directly on the glass with the thin layer of glue. It works like a charm for any filament like ABS, PLA, Nylon and so on.

Once you've got glass bed buildtak is really unnecessary.

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Billucas
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Location: Quebec, Canada

Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby Billucas » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:01 pm

flexrc wrote:From my experience it is better to turn buildtak down and to print directly on the glass with the thin layer of glue. It works like a charm for any filament like ABS, PLA, Nylon and so on.

Once you've got glass bed buildtak is really unnecessary.


Can you tell me if you tried to print in ABS large parts, between 6 x 6" or 11 x 11" of footprint?
You did not experienced severe warping? For me, it is 9/10 a bad experience or an echec. And also my friends who own the same printer.
I bought the N2Plus to print big parts with ASA/ABS filament, but I am unable to print correctly, and I have tried everything, many options.
I'm disappointed but I'm not going to let go. I read a lot about the subject, but no real solutions.
I am looking to make a perforated aluminium plate, to hold the raft in place.
I am open to good ideas from you Raisers!

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walshlg
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby walshlg » Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:10 pm

May I suggest an elegant solution that John mentioned a while back: accept that ABS (and nylon) will always warp to some extent. Design 1-2mm thick tabs that extend out the base of your print to the sides and clip the print in place. after the first 1-2mm is complete pause the print and apply the clips to the model itself.

Andy Cohen
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Re: Bad adhesion of Buildtak

Postby Andy Cohen » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:15 pm

Your buildtak problem is probably because your nozzle is a touch too far from the build surface. In other machines this is easily solved by bed leveling in less then second. Unless you mod it yourself, the N2/N2+ bed is factory leveled (a boneheaded design approach which R3D stubbornly refuses to redesign). You can awkwardly change the height by adjusting the limit switch stop screw, but that is for the entire plate and it is VERY tedious to manipulate. The Buildtak crap is an overpriced solution which will fail you eventually right when you do not want it to, but the factory leveling and the limit switch adjust make it hard to switch to the way most of us experienced 3D Printing wonks do it.
We do it with Aquanet Unscented, Super extra hold hairspray... NO OTHER VERSION OR HS WORKS AS WELL. Search older posts here for how to use it.
If you use your n2/N2+ a lot then you should seriously consider modifying away from the factory leveled bed. For those that print a lot it simply DOES NOT WORK.


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