What's this issue look like to you?

Thoughts about Raise3D, 3D printing and making in general.
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geekhands
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What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:07 pm

So the attached image has two prints...

If looking down on the print bed from the front (where the door is)...

In ideamaker the prints were:

Good Print
X 0.00
Y 0.00
Z 10.00

Bad Print
X 104.40
Y 7.00
Z 10.00

The 0.20mm supplied feeler gauge appears to have less resistance on the right verus the left side of the bed.
Is my bed out of level? If so - what should I do?

Any thoughts are appreciated. I received this printer new just a week or so ago.
Printing on a raft completes OK with a little crunchiness. :)

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
Attachments
IMG_1024.JPG

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geekhands
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:24 pm

just for giggles i removed and spun the plate around (thinking maybe it's the plate) and printed in the exact same coordinates... same result.
see the attached image for top down view.
Attachments
IMG_1025.JPG

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geekhands
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:27 pm

when looking at the plate from the front you can see where the left side of the build plate meets the bed there is a slight gap... not so on the right.

can stick with a little resistance a folded piece of copy paper between the left front corner... can't do that on any other corner.
Attachments
IMG_1027.JPG
IMG_1026.JPG

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:40 pm

The 0.20mm supplied feeler gauge appears to have less resistance on the right verus the left side of the bed.
Is my bed out of level? If so - what should I do?


Time to level the bed my friend. Look I know it is advertised as no need to level, but between China and your house/office, there is a lot of hard road miles. Now once you dial it in, then yes, I agree, you can worry about this less, but I think instructions and guides need to bring you new folks the basic 101 stuff we older crusty 3D printing folks learned on day one of the hobby- leveling and z-gap is the FIRST thing you learn. This is make or break kind of fundamental understanding in 3D printing.

Sorry, again, not trying to rip into you but this is the kind of stuff to know before you ever turn on the printer. Z gap is everything to the start of this process. If it's wrong, you might as well turn it off and go watch TV or Youtube.

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:43 pm

The instructions https://www.raise3d.com/pages/bed-leveling-instruction

I also think that the FAQ should be updated to reflect the statement I just made about after first moving or shipping a printer.
https://www.raise3d.com/pages/faq#faq13

Flat out, the instructions should be CHECK the leveling upon arrival, if not within tolerance, adjust per https://www.raise3d.com/pages/bed-leveling-instruction

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geekhands
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:56 pm

Yep no worries. Not upset in the slightest. Just making sure my assumptions are correct.
Not one to shy away from issues. The prints that have come out of this unit, even in this state, are beautiful.
Appreciate the links. Will look them over. Have already submitted to support for any additional insights they may bring given this unit is newer. Most of the info here and around and about is a bit aged. :)

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:02 pm

Also, see this post since you have a newer unit. I am working through this and updating the guidance for the latest models. Nothing wrong, just trying to make some adjustments and guidance to give you the best long term experience. viewtopic.php?f=4&p=12658#p12632

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geekhands
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:07 pm

is there any documentation regarding the coordinate positions from which to check the bed?
they mention 9 positions (which any person would understand, but it'd be nice to be able to move the nozzle to precise points...
it'd be even better if you could plug them into the ideamker interface on the utilities page rather than moving in 10mm/1mm/0.1mm steps with arrows...

Am I missing some pro tip here?

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geekhands
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:30 pm

I'd rather not manually move the printer head is my main point.
Meaty monkey hands applying pressure in the wrong way can cause issues IMO.

Perhaps a command line option is available. Perhaps the two boards doesn't allow that.
If it did - I'd love to write a web app that moves the print head to where it's needed and walks people through the steps.

Anyway - just thinking out loud here. Any thoughts or input is appreciated.

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby lami3d » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:54 pm

I haven't launched a single print that my brand new N2 got the manual bed levelling mod !
A the rear of the bed i was able to pass nearly 2* 0.2mm feeler gauges between nozzle and bed vs the front of the bed where even one gauge doesn't pass

I think Raise has to lock also the 4* Z axis because it seemed to me that the whole bed was inclined and so, it can happen when they press the boxes located under the bed for packaging... If the pressure is not equally distributed on the lower face of the bed, it can slightly incline the bed....
Last edited by lami3d on Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:55 pm

We'd have to write a gcode script and many like me prefer to move the head manually. Why? Because I go in multiple patterns based on how much I adjust any one given point. If it was way out, I get it mostly level, then fine tune, then fine tune again.

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:57 pm

Again, no need for a web app, just learn gcode. The only thing is we cannot yet display messages on the LCD from a script.
So, the user would have to know how to use the script, what to do when certain things happened.

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geekhands
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby geekhands » Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:41 pm

Gotcha... thanks for the direction re: learning gcode as a developer i am sure it'll be a piece of cake.

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:59 am

Here are the follow up pictures I mentioned earlier.
Attachments
leveling2.jpg
Nozzle height.jpg

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:19 am

Here is a link to a quick video I made of using a dial indicator from Harbor Freight VS using the feeler gauge. Keep in mind, this only levels the bed, this does not set the Z-gap. That, you still use paper or the feeler gauge to set the endstop screw.
In other words, you do this first, then fine tune the global Z gap using the screw and rehoming.

https://youtu.be/A9-vg2UllhA
Attachments
IMG_0449[1].JPG
IMG_0450[1].JPG
IMG_0448[1].JPG
IMG_0447[1].JPG
IMG_0446[1].JPG

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:50 am

Here is an additional video on leveling using the dial indicator. Sorry, I know it's horrible.
https://youtu.be/Du8OdPosrMo

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:13 am

Alternate dial indicator mount printable to replace the fan duct by DreamForgeGames http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1584618

My only statement is out of the box, you need to level the printer- making this printable bracket is not the best plan forward. I guess winging it and using raft.

lami3d
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Location: Marseille - France

Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby lami3d » Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:24 am

Hello,

i have the dial indicator fan duct fitting but it's not possible to go at the rear of the bed

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:00 pm

Using the dial indicator obviously it cannot reach ALL areas of the bed. That's OK, that's why we use a glass surface, glass is extremely flat. If you calibrate the bed it should be flat regardless of if the dial indicator did not go all the way into the corner.

I actually backed off several of the center leveling screws to only level 5 points, the 4 corners and the center. I understand why they have so many points and sure, if we were printing on the aluminum plate, then all the extra points would greatly assist. Me, I found life so much easier and stable to only really have the 5 points (4 corners + center) actually pressing up on the bed, the others are still there, just mainly the M3 nut prevents them from warping up and since the glass build surface is my flat plane, I'm just ensuring the aluminum heater plate is holding it perfectly level and flat and the center is not bowing up. And if anything, the dial indicator is proving how well that works, my bed to nozzle plane is about as perfect as i think possible given the hardware. Didn't take a lot of effort to achieve it and didn't have to do any mods either. It was just using what was already there.

Jetguy
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Re: What's this issue look like to you?

Postby Jetguy » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:04 pm

Now in all fairness, I have to admit that if you are willing to make a modification, I do very much like the basic method in this recent 5 point system by Gian Pablo Villamil http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1992664
Or the previous one by TobyCWood http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1409412

This takes much less effort to level. It's simply less screws to adjust, less "points" of leveling. and can perform adjustment of Z gap at the same time. Because this same basic mechanical arrangement has been used for years on other printers, many folks are simply used to this and the Raise 3D fixed system was not as comfortable.


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