Black MagiC Conductive PLA

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Casale8
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Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:13 pm

Has anyone out there used Black Magic Conductive PLA?

Any suggestions if so?
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:04 pm

100 grams for $70!!!! I had better have an exceptional project to even consider trying this filament.
http://graphenelab.com/blackmagic3d/Fil ... 16x279.pdf
Conductive filament.jpg


Hint: Flowrate is the multiplier on Raise 3D systems. 1.1 is the equivalent of 110%.
What they are doing is techically over extruding (pushing 10% more plastic) into the logical space or gcode path that the slicer makes.
This is required to achieve the resistance they specify because you are compressing the filament to ensure it's conductive and squirting a wider fatter noodle of filament because cross section lowers resistance.

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:26 pm

I don't doubt that the Black Magic filament is more conductive, but the cost alone, just to experiment, the project had better justify the cost.
This is because if you can deal with slightly higher resistance- it seems to me this https://www.amazon.com/Proto-pasta-CDP1 ... B00X8BQYVM is a massively better version to get your feet wet on.
Just saying, 500G for $48 VS 100G for $70 or $0.096 per gram cost VS $0.70 per gram.
Yes, they are different and yes, there is a cutting edge reason and lower conductivity of the more expensive filament, but you could test in cheaper filament and save your expensive final version for the expensive stuff. Conductive circuits sound cool, the practicality drops off due to cost pretty quickly. That's why this is not extremely popular and a regular filament people print with daily.

And, since both are PLA and identical setting are what they both use, just test in one and final print in the other.
Heck, you probably want to hand load it and not let the the default ideamaker starting gcode of a 30mm prime waste that much filament, no skirt, definitely not a wipe wall on dual extrusion. Again just thinking out loud, only 100g, a person could blow through in a couple test prints if they were not really up to speed on all settings and functions. On most filament, we wouldn't think twice and those recommended settings improve the final print quality, but do so with some minimal waste. However, if you have some of the most expensive filament I know of- well

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:31 pm

Jetguy wrote:100 grams for $70!!!! I had better have an exceptional project to even consider trying this filament.
http://graphenelab.com/blackmagic3d/Fil ... 16x279.pdf
Conductive filament.jpg


Hint: Flowrate is the multiplier on Raise 3D systems. 1.1 is the equivalent of 110%.
What they are doing is techically over extruding (pushing 10% more plastic) into the logical space or gcode path that the slicer makes.
This is required to achieve the resistance they specify because you are compressing the filament to ensure it's conductive and squirting a wider fatter noodle of filament because cross section lowers resistance.


I'm able to get it to raft without issue, but on finer printing it seems to cause issue with spitting material. I will try the 110%. The materials is real coarse.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:41 pm

Good video comparison on different conductive filaments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8IR-lBfRQ
Sorry if I sounded negative, this is a good topic and worthy of discussion and sharing of settings.

Sorry, already started typing when I saw your reply and question.
I'm able to get it to raft without issue, but on finer printing it seems to cause issue with spitting material.


I'm not sure what you mean by "spitting".
In my mind, it means one of 2 potential things:
Under extrusion caused by a partial jam after a retraction resulting in gaps and late starts of flow of extrusion between islands of printing.
or
Ooze or dripping- caused by the fact this is PLA and running higher temps- makes it more liquid and more prone to ooze. There is no magic solution here. Lowering temperature means it may not print as well or be as condutive, but that would improve ooze performance. Longer distance of retraction is unlikely to reduce ooze, and may instead cause jams and under extrusion.

If it was a typo and "splitting" material- meaning layer cracks- this seems to be a fuction of the conductive filler in the filament. Most comments are conductive filament and thus the print is not as strong as regular PLA and can be brittle.

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 7:58 pm

Jetguy wrote:Good video comparison on different conductive filaments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fm8IR-lBfRQ
Sorry if I sounded negative, this is a good topic and worthy of discussion and sharing of settings.

Sorry, already started typing when I saw your reply and question.
I'm able to get it to raft without issue, but on finer printing it seems to cause issue with spitting material.


I'm not sure what you mean by "spitting".
In my mind, it means one of 2 potential things:
Under extrusion caused by a partial jam after a retraction resulting in gaps and late starts of flow of extrusion between islands of printing.


I'm new so terminology is new for me.

After retraction from creating the raft the filament is printing spotty, as if jamming. I brought the flow rate up to 110 and it printed more, but as soon as it moved to the secondary feature (after an extractino movement) it barely printed until it didn't and was fully jammed...
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:22 pm

First, try reducing toolchange retraction distance since that is the first place we know it seems to be jamming.
Conductive filamentooze setting.jpg


Next, basic extruder troubleshooting is that you the user and operator have to be able to tell if the extruder feeder is slipping and grinding the filament (thus not pushing it into the nozzle) or is it gripping properly and so if the hotend jams, the stepper motor should skip steps with a thump thump or "clicking" sound.

If slipping and grinding on the filament- time to adjust the distance between the drive gear and the V-groove bearing pressing the filament into the drive gear.
This is a quote from a post of mine related to under extrusion issues on TPU filament, but valid for all filament:
If you are using the stock filament feeder section, you must adjust the drive gear to v-groove distance to properly grip flexible filament. Here is a thread with pictures on that topic viewtopic.php?f=2&t=879&p=8367&hilit=paper+shim#p8342

If you fail to do that, then when extrusion pressure increases, the feeder can no longer grip and push the filament as required. This is true of all filament types, but even more so for flexible filaments.

You have a number of choices:
You can just loosen the motor mounting screws, hold the motor nearer the bearing side and tighten the screws. That has a limited amount of adjustment. This is the first stage of adjustment.

You can place a shim of folded paper or other thin material under the motor face to effectively angle the motor shaft nearer the V-groove bearing for more pressure or grip. This was a Raise 3D "official" recommended adjustment

You can change the drive gear to an aftermarket one with sharper teeth for more bite
https://www.3dp2go.com/38-teeth-steel-e ... ca2ns13t35

You can upgrade to either a Bondtech or other feeder upgrade http://shop.bondtech.se/ec/upgrade-kits/raise3d/

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:23 pm

Alright. My retraction at switch is 3.5 as shown.

One thing that is hindering it is the tension on the spool as you wrote that the gear doesn't really like grabbing in tension for this material or the like.

Really builds a nice raft though, which I notice this material doesn't like to print on the buildtak without it. I can live with it - for now.

The only thing I haven't done is turn off wipe wall - yet. Next run.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:37 pm

This is what it looks like when it gets above the raft.

You can see that it is iffy about the outer wall. The first layer pass is where it has been failing.

Excluding the tension issue from the spool which I will address separately. That will be a mechanical fix. I'm concerned with this not flowing properly. Whether its the wipe wall or the force retraction on layer change...

I've chnaged the nozzle to .6 as the filament requires .5 or greater. bleh.

More tomorrow. Thanks for any insight.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:50 pm

If you changed physical nozzle size, did you also change that in the slicer (ideamaker)?
extrusion width setting.jpg


Did you also correct the extrusion width to match the nozzle?
Nozzle size setting.jpg

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:52 pm

I added another "printer" specifically to do such so that the nozzles were more readily controlled by the "printer."

Thnaks though
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Michael.P@Raise3D » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:03 am

Just to touch in here, I did notice that temps were not covered in this exchange, what is the range on the material and your setting? while the raft does look good for the most part it could still be a factor.
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Julia Truchsess
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Julia Truchsess » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:04 am

I have some Black Magic, I forget if it's PLA or ABS. The biggest problem I had with it was lack of layer bonding. Bonding to itself was bad enough, but generally with conductive material you want to do a multi-material print with some non-conductive material and this was for me a total fail, it wouldn't bond at all. I can't say I pursued it vigorously, but initial results turned me off the stuff. I do believe there are some much more conductive materials around now, like this one:

https://www.multi3dllc.com/

but from much smaller companies with less financing.

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:08 pm

Michael.P@Raise3D wrote:Just to touch in here, I did notice that temps were not covered in this exchange, what is the range on the material and your setting? while the raft does look good for the most part it could still be a factor.


My setting shown in the pdf.


blackmagic3d10.16.2017.pdf



hint hint: It would be nice to be able to copy and paste images into thread dialog boxes.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Thu Nov 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Temps are on the "Cooling" tab of the profile and I did not see a screenshot of that tab in the pdf.
Before you even say it, yep, I know, I think the same thing every time- the cooling tab?

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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:54 pm

Cooling tab black magic.JPG


Amusingly, that's exactly why I didn't add it, didn't think it would matter.
I wonder if the cooling at layer two is the problem. I will try to pick this up later tomorrow.

Thanks for your insight.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein

Jetguy
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Jetguy » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:40 am

No, because unless you added a print layer cooling fan, that port on the breakout is not connected to a fan.
So the gcode can turn it on, but no fan connected or exists on the stock dual extruder.

Now if you had the factory single extruder option, then YES, there is a layer fan in place the right hotend and nozzle system.

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DrewPetitclerc
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby DrewPetitclerc » Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:33 am

Just a little comment on "conductive" materials, I've had great success printing parts in ABS conductive on both my Zortrax M200 and my UP Plus Pro in the past, this was a carbon filled plastic, the only issue I found was that you have to be careful what you are using the part for, In my case it was an enclosure/nest for assembling electronics where static charge was an issue, while the parts met the "Form-Fit", the "Function" criteria did not, I found out that the parts were essentially a black crayon that left undesired black carbon marks on every thing it touched, we wanted it for a clean room application but had to drop it.
I would keep this in mind if your parts are to be handled a lot.
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Casale8
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Re: Black MagiC Conductive PLA

Postby Casale8 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:22 pm

Well well well... Good news.

I am presently running Proto-pasta's COMPOSITE PLA - ELECTRICALLY CONDUCTIVE 1.75mm. It's printing like I would expect - near perfect. The first print was extremely difficult to remove from the buildtak. I'm presently printing with a raft (which I have been trying to avoid) -
testing. So far this printing is 99% better than the Black Magic 3D.

Also to note:
The Black Magic 3D material is super coarse prior to going in to the extruder. The Composite from proto-pasta is smooth like PLA is commonly. You can see the difference the second it starts spooling and comes out of the nozzle.
-SCC
“One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.” -R.A.Heinlein


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