the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

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enricodare
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the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby enricodare » Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:29 am

hi,
the company I work with has sold two 3D Raises, a Pro 2 and a Pro 2 Plus.
I'm testing a PVA-based filament (Ghostforce), but from the tests carried out, even extruding PLA and PVA without the top cover, the extruder group overheats and softens the filament, causing the extrusion to stop.
From a technical data sheet the nema 17 engines installed have a temperature of 80 ° C, but their temperature causes the end wire sensor, the extrusion gears and the carriage to heat up.
Is it possible to reduce the supply voltage to remedy the problem?
Thank you
Attachments
test3.jpg
test2.jpg

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Jiter
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby Jiter » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 am

Word!
I have the same issues with PVA!
Cheers, David
If you can dream it, you can print it! :lol:

nailhead
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby nailhead » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:27 am

Yes,
I do have the same problem! Printing PVA with lid closed is not possible at all. Had a lot of jams because of this big issue here.

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enricodare
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby enricodare » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:55 am

little update with temperatures.
Attachments
IMG_20180712_182133.jpg
rear motor temperature
IMG_20180712_182159.jpg
front motor temperature

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enricodare
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby enricodare » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:34 am

I believe that a rear heatsink is a simpler and more effective solution, but that it would be better to reduce the temperature of the motors, because when they work in the closed chamber, they heat up even more.

the best solution would be to reduce the operating temperature of stepper motors
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08cade7393a8b3916166680519550180_preview_featured.jpg

Prop-Fiction
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby Prop-Fiction » Fri Jul 20, 2018 12:28 pm

Hey that the solution from OKM German Puplisher of the Raise printer:

https://www.3d-drucker-experte.de/raise ... erie?c=269

Have buy this , will try this ...
Es gibt kein das „geht nicht“, immer nur eine Frage des Geldes oder der Zeit.

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Prop-Fiction
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby Prop-Fiction » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:35 pm

Is they any solving from Raise ?
Es gibt kein das „geht nicht“, immer nur eine Frage des Geldes oder der Zeit.

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MDVolle
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby MDVolle » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:57 pm

I can completely agree that the motors DO heat the factory extruder block quite a lot - especially on really long print jobs - I glued
heatsinks to the backs of the stepper motors - no added fans (yet) and it helped a lot. Be sure to keep the fins vertical if you want the best convection cooling - less important if you are also adding a fan.

There are spacers that you can put between the motor and the block to create a heat block - I have not tried them but they are out there too.

I also found a very interesting advantage to the situation as well - in some cases, like printing in Nylon, it acts as a final "dryer" for the incoming filament and seems to function as a bonus - With the Bondtech extruder I seem to have to make sure my materials are more carefully dried and stored than I did before.

I know its a real problem with really low temp filaments...

dinogoal
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby dinogoal » Sun Jul 22, 2018 6:34 pm

MDVolle: It would be awesome to know where you purchased the heatsinks from.

Are there concerns with the heat sinks contacting other components within the unit (frame, pulleys, etc.)?

MDVolle
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby MDVolle » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:49 am

I (unfortunately) scavenged my heatsinks from scrapped PC's and Laptops - just trimmed them down to the shape of the motor - sorry...

There ARE concerns about clearing everything but even a shallow (1/4" deep fins) heatsink can disperse a lot of heat - especially when the cover is off or open - and off completely is a lot different from just propped open -

I was lazy and just crazy glued them on - again, not an ideal heat conductor but I just wanted to see if it helped. There are self adhesive thermal transfer pads, which would be much better.

I could also have printed some clips to hold them in some way - see above (notably a lazy attempt).

I haven't put sinks on the motors of the Bondtech (yet), as I haven't had a need (yet) but if I do, I'll try to be an adult and use real parts with part numbers that I can share...

I rarely even print PLA - mostly nylons and co-polyesters, so much higher temps and was more worried about the motors than the filament.

Initially, I wasn't sure if the heat was from the extruders heating the motors or just the motors themselves and it seems to be the motors themselves.

dinogoal
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby dinogoal » Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:54 am

Thanks MDVolle. I print mostly PLA and I've actually been running the machine with all the doors and covers open to try to counter the heat issues. I believe there is about 1/4" or so clearance between the motor and the frame when printing at the bed limit (closest to user), so I'll try a short heatsink.

Recently, I've been experiencing a lot of jams, especially with long builds and Raise3D's Art White material. This seems to be somewhat of a reoccurring theme with the Pro2 lately on the forum. There is some speculation it's due to heat creep or improper heat dissipation through the extruder. Since you are running typically higher temps have you been plagued with a lot of jams?

MDVolle
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby MDVolle » Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 am

dinogoal,
I'm running an N2+ so everything is a little different BUT - I did have some issues with heat creep initially and found that putting a simple shield between the heat sink/cold end and the hot block helped significantly - especially with long prints and with thin layers or small nozzles (when less filament is running through the extruder, so it sits longer above the hot end).

There are lots of threads on this but I found a very simple product to use and its really cheep - its called ceramic paper - comes in several thicknesses, can be cut with scissors and I would punch a hole with a paper punch and slip it over the feed tube and then install the hot end - a few dollars for a 12" square sheet and thats enough to last a very long time. That stopped the jamming for me.

If you are running the Pro with the silicone sock, it should already be providing this protection - I'm waiting to be able to purchase the socks as a part so I can add them to my printer.

Its also noteworthy that the slower you print, the less material your are actually extruding - and it sits and cooks above the thermal break.

If quality and geometry allow it, faster print speeds actually may clear up the problem - it doesn't immediately seem like a related issue or a solution, but it is a factor - couple small nozzles, thin layers and a slow print speed, it can be a perfect "trifecta" and suddenly everything gums up. I didn't learn this the easy way or from a book - unfortunately it took me a little time to piece together what had changed when my previously "happy" combination of nozzle, temp and filament seemed to be acting differently -

This can also happen when reaching layers that are very small in area - the interaction with the minimum print time per layer setting effectively slows the printing speed to extend the time on the layer (there is a minimum speed you can set as well).

While this does allow the layer more time to cool (good) it slows the print speed and can cook the filament (bad) so its a balance and might be an issue if you are seeing jams when the layers start to get smaller but it seems OK earlier in the print.

I've rambled enough, but I wish you luck - its frustrating until it gets sorted out.

Mark

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GnoStiC
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby GnoStiC » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:47 am

just to be safe, i plan to print two of these and connect to LED3 and LED4 connectors on extruder connection board.
NEMA 17 40mm fan mount: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:259718
Nema 17 cooler: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:244292

are those LED3/LED4 connectors controllable by gcode?

JamesW
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby JamesW » Thu Jul 26, 2018 7:27 pm

I really look forward to comments from Raise3D about the German solution. It looks interesting.

firesped
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby firesped » Fri Jul 27, 2018 8:25 am

further proof that the vref on those steppers is set to high and raise3d needs to modify the closed firmware on the pro2 series to fix this issue.
RL name: Michael Nolen
printers:
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Naser404
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby Naser404 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 6:11 pm

I am this close to throwing all these electronics on my Raise Pro2Plus and add a Duet Wifi instead and even replace these hotends with E3D ones. cause this printer is just not reliable at its current state.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:11 am

As far as we tested the extruder of Pro2 until now, even the extruder motor is running with heat, as gear inside is made by plastic. The heat should can be transferred very limited and hardly between plastic.
If you have some other findings, please let us know.
Thanks a lot!

mkowalski
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby mkowalski » Wed Aug 08, 2018 11:12 am

Prop-Fiction wrote:Hey that the solution from OKM German Puplisher of the Raise printer:

https://www.3d-drucker-experte.de/raise ... erie?c=269

Have buy this , will try this ...


How is it that a German reseller of Raise3D found and issued a resolution to the problem faster than the parent company who based on the thread responses here, doesn't have a clue or acknowledge the issue? :? :?

KS_Husker
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Re: the temperature of the motors overheat the extruder unit

Postby KS_Husker » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:20 pm

This seems to be a reoccurring theme I'm seeing on this printer. I like this solution. I may have to do something similar on mine. Thanks for sharing.


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