Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Lorenzo
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Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Lorenzo » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:31 am

Hello,

Just noticed this morning that my Pro2+ printer's nozzle temperatures are shown to be at 246° C in the touchscreen under utilities tab, but when I touch them they are cold. This proves problematic as I need to unload my filament to load in a different color for our production facility, but I can't as the unload temperature for my PLA should be below 210° C. When I try to unload, the temperature reading does not drop.

Please advice on what to do as it is quite urgent that I deliver the needed tools for our production department in a timely manner.

Kind regards,

Lorenzo

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:19 pm

Please take a picture of your extruder board which is located beside your extruder, hiding behind a printed cover with Raise3D logo, under cable chain.

Or shoot us a support ticket at help.raise3d.com.

Please do not heat your printer temporary until we find the issue, as your nozzles are not read proper temperature now.

DavidBarwin
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby DavidBarwin » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:15 am

Similar issue here: Have been using my Pro2 for the last couple of weeks successfully but now my left and right extruder both read 330 and the print bed 60. I have set all three to 0 but doesn't seem to matter. Have powered off and on and no change. Print bed is warm but extruders are not. In the process of getting the "extruder board" picture as you asked above I bumped the wire harness and the temperatures updated correctly. I've gently moved the different wires and it seems to work correctly so I'm not sure which was loose. Is there a particular connection on that board I should reseat and verify it's connected well?


IMG_1649.jpeg
Last edited by DavidBarwin on Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DavidBarwin
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby DavidBarwin » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:22 am

Now that I think about it I did have several print jobs in the last day that had issues in the middle that looked like the extruder had temporarily stopped extruding and I thought it was a filament issue but I'm guessing now that it was the connection that was working loose that was causing this? I'm going to check board connections and do another test. I'm still interested in knowing where on the extruder PCB those connections would be. Kind Regards, - David

DavidBarwin
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby DavidBarwin » Sun Jul 08, 2018 7:11 pm

Ran a 12 hour job without issue and the readings stay correct. Must have been a loose connection..... -David

Lorenzo
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Lorenzo » Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:57 am

Hello,

Going to try and reseat the connectors, thanks for the picture David, will take the picture as well just before reseating and checking.

kind regards,

Lorenzo

Lorenzo
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Lorenzo » Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:29 am

Seems reseating the connectors fixed the problem for me as well. :)

Kind regards,

Lorenzo

Prop-Fiction
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Prop-Fiction » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:51 pm

Have the same problem from time to time. Please Raise what cable can make the Problem?
Es gibt kein das „geht nicht“, immer nur eine Frage des Geldes oder der Zeit.

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Naser404
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Naser404 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 4:19 pm

Just Had this problem too, ill check my wire connection too.

This printer is showing that its more problematic then the N2, a real shame from Raise, they had a good reputation and now they are not even active to answer our concerns and provide an upgrade to solve these issue.
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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:33 am

Prop-Fiction wrote:Have the same problem from time to time. Please Raise what cable can make the Problem?


The colorful cable with large white 14pin plug is the ribbon cable.

Note: If any user find any abnormal temperature reading, please do not use the heating function until the issue being fixed. Or it may cause overheating.

Naser404
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Naser404 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 am

Vicky@Raise3D wrote:
Prop-Fiction wrote:Have the same problem from time to time. Please Raise what cable can make the Problem?


The colorful cable with large white 14pin plug is the ribbon cable.

Note: If any user find any abnormal temperature reading, please do not use the heating function until the issue being fixed. Or it may cause overheating.


The problem is this happens during long prints when we are away from the printer.

Yesterday i was printing a 15 hour print and waited till is started the first couple of layers then i left, i came back 8 hours later to see it printing in the air, looked at the temps on the display and its showing fine, then i decided to touch the hotends and that's when i realized that its cold even though its showing 240c on both hot ends.

Then i knew it was cable issue but i checked and its connected but i had to wiggle it a little to work again, so this is a common issue, the connection is not loose but it seems the movement while printing some how damages the cables and i am not the only one as can be seen from this thread.

Prop-Fiction
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Prop-Fiction » Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:11 am

Hey yes same here. Today.
Es gibt kein das „geht nicht“, immer nur eine Frage des Geldes oder der Zeit.

Schlaf wird überbewertet.

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DavidBarwin
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby DavidBarwin » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:42 pm

Same issue here again as well. Thought I had a clogged extruder but now I believe it was just the faulty connection of the 14pin plug cutting power/heat to the nozzle. Of course, when I tried to unload the filament it broke at the gear since it was too cold to actually pull the filament out. Check your nozzle temp (by hand) before trying to load or unload if you suspect similar faulty connection issue.

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Vicky@Raise3D
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Vicky@Raise3D » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:35 am

Have you tried heat the nozzle then move the extruder manually around and check whether the temperature on screen jumps or not during moving?

Prop-Fiction
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Prop-Fiction » Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:09 pm

Hey here is a video of what it look like if you have this issue.
You can try this by yourself without heating the hotend .
The video is in german sorry .

https://youtu.be/rg1ex8vmGq4
Es gibt kein das „geht nicht“, immer nur eine Frage des Geldes oder der Zeit.

Schlaf wird überbewertet.

My Costume website
http://www.prop-fiction.de

Lorenzo
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Lorenzo » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:58 am

This is actually a pretty dangerous/critical failure. As noted by others in this thread, it can occur in the middle of a print. In case the hot end shows a high temperature when it happens, it only cools down and prints in the air. In case it is heating up, it can overheat causing damage to the printer and even cause a fire to erupt if particularly unlucky.

I had it happen to me while I was staying at the printer for some support removal of a former print. It started heating up, but suddenly the temperature seemed stuck at 180 °C. When I started smelling burned filament, I pulled the plug and re-adjusted the 14 pin connector. When plugging the cable back in, the extruder was at 286 °C. If I hadn't pulled the plug the runaway heating could have caused serious damage and/or fire.

This is something that needs to be fixed quickly, as the chances of something going critically, horribly wrong increase by the day. It is also my opinion that Raise3D can be held accountable if the machine causes a fire due to a mechanical failure from the factory. Our raise3d pro2 is being used in a factory.. Imagine the cost of a fire if our production needs to be shut down, even for half an hour. (we have over 1500 employees on site!).

Kind regards,

Lorenzo

Jetguy
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Jetguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:09 pm

I've actually suspected this was a major fault (lack of cable failure detection just as seen in the N series) but without them selling me an upgrade of the electronics for the N series to Pro2 series, I'm not buying a Pro2 just so I can fix this error for the collective group.
I spoke with Raise3D leadership and technical folks yesterday on the issue, shared my thoughts and concerns and they are looking into this.

That said, I have to say this in public. I cannot recommend this Pro2 series to anyone until the mainboard is modified or a thermal protector plug in device is made just like for the N series. The fault here is stupidly simple, the lack of a high value pullup resistor on the analog sense lines at the mainboard. The idea being that as long as a valid voltage signal is received across the multi pin (no longer a ribbon cable on the Pro2) cable, then the board sees the actual hotend temp. If the cable anywhere in the path to the extruder fails, then this pullup resistor causes the mainboard to report maxtemp both safely ensuring the heater is shutdown, but also instantly triggering overtemp and thus a print save point is created.

Now yes, this does not fix the root cause (cable or connector failure), however, it DOES fix troubleshooting and safety of thermal runaway conditions.

The reasons why I cannot post a fix as in the past is again, I need the pinout of the connection and/or a pro2 series set of boards for testing the fix to ensure the resistor value chosen does not offset temps but does perform the required safety in case of cable failure.

Please understand this post and it's context- still true on the Pro2 series:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6442&p=25755&hilit=thermal+runaway#p25755
#1 any machine on the 3D printing market with a set of wires to the moving extruder head can have a failure from flexing. The head moves millions of times, that's opportunity for wear and tear. Put another way, you should expect the cable to fail. Be glad when it lasts as long as it does. Yes, under ideal conditions we expect it to last a relatively long time before failure (my oldest machine is 2 years old without a cable failure). Yes, absolutely, a minor defect on assembly of the cable chain and minor details could lead to premature failure. Nobody wants that to happen but short of taking the entire cable system apart, putting it together "your way" and knowing you did it could prevent this failure as pictured in this thread. Absolutely, if Raise 3D assembled it and contributed to early failure, they should be covering cable replacement.

#2 Given what I just said in #1, this is why the OTHER discussion is happening. Nobody wants a cable failure. That said, it can and WILL happen. So this is why the more recent discussions on the modification and safety board keep popping up. It's one thing to have a cable failure. It's whole different ballgame when a failure is NOT immediately detected within seconds of the failure. This cable failure can and DID in this very thread lead to a confirmed thermal runaway condition where the extruder did shoot over the setpoint temp and triggered a thermal runaway protection only after the cable flexed and made contact again.


This post covers the technical details for the N series, but again, I highly suspect the same fix would work on the Pro2 series provided you could identify the 2 analog pins and a 5V source to connect the resistors to. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6442&p=25755&hilit=thermal+runaway#p25766

More technical detail again viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3524
Again, just understand what this mod does. The analog pins for T0 and T1 (left and right analog thermocouple pins from the output of the AD597 on the extruder breakout board) has no pull up or pull down. The pin likes to stay at whatever the last voltage read was in the event the ribbon cable comes unplugged. Also note the basic scheme of how temps are read. The AD597 outputs 10millivolts per degree C measured. So it starts at 0 representing 0C and so room temp say 23C is 230mV or 0.23V on the analog pin. 230C would be 2.3V.
The 1meg resistor is such a high value resistor, the output of the AD597 is not raised by this external input.
However, in the case of cable failure- the 1 meg from 5V to the analog pin ensures it rises to 5V. Back to the signal scheme 5V represents 500C well above any logical extruder temp and instantly invokes the safety code. Also, by raising high rather than low, again, the basic rule if safety failed is that if the reported temp is higher than the setpoint, then the heater is instantly off even beyond any safety code.

Bottom line, this is a true "fail safe".
It's on the motherboard and thus cannot come unplugged or generally flex or break. It requires no code for it to work and even would work without any safety code at all.


Just to recap, as I know it and would recommend to clients, the only 3 fixes I would accept here are:
#1 a plug in safety board, just as created for the N series and supplied on all new printers. This is the easiest fix to existing printers
#2 A mainboard modification to do the same thing (example is exchange mainboards for customer with a modified mainboard)
#3 A properly fixed new version of the mainboard (not a mod, but a new board with properly functioning pullups to detect cable failure.

Until this happens, I have no choice but to tell folks do not buy the Pro2 series. I have to act upon the best interest and safety of the customer.
Last edited by Jetguy on Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jetguy
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Jetguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 12:31 pm

Here is a video posted in the N series discussion, but same problem is clearly here in the pro2.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjs8fpjxlwvmq ... e.mp4?dl=0

The differences are:
Pro2 does use locking connectors as an upgrade from the previous N series
Pro2 uses a different wire rather than the flat ribbon cable.

The things that remain the same:
The cable carrying the temp sensor analog voltage signal back to the mainboard to make the heater ON/OFF PWM status and the cable actually carrying the 24V and return path is still 2 separate cables. The heater power and return is carried on a heavier 3 wire locking cable to the extruder breakout, while the temperature signal is carried in the separate smaller and thinner wire cable. We are seeing failure or potential failure of that cable. The fact remains, no matter what wire is used, no matter locking connectors or not, "the system" must be able to detect critical faults that can lead to thermal runaway. Raise 3D was working on changing manufacturing details of the Pro2 to address the physical cable and connections, but that alone does not solve the problem and safety issue.

This must have 2 parts:
You have to fix the cable because any failure means that printer is not printing. It's that simple. Raise3D leadership explained some of the details they are looking at for this, everything from wire type to the crimps in the connectors, to specific assembly details (wire routing and placement to include free slack).

But you also have to correct this mistake or however you want to spin it failure that the Pro2 mainboard cannot detect this cable fault. We know and have seen this before, we know the corrective action (add pullup resistors). How you do that is up to you Raise 3D, but it needs done yesterday. Based on the conversation I had yesterday, I was not under the impression that this next required and important step was being actively worked at the time of the phone call.

Naser404
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Naser404 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:31 pm

Jetguy wrote:Here is a video posted in the N series discussion, but same problem is clearly here in the pro2.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fjs8fpjxlwvmq ... e.mp4?dl=0

The differences are:
Pro2 does use locking connectors as an upgrade from the previous N series
Pro2 uses a different wire rather than the flat ribbon cable.



Might not be the same as when i disconnect the cable on my Raise Pro2 the Temps actually shoots up and fluctuates unlike the video where it stays the same.

Jetguy
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Re: Cold nozzles reading 240° C

Postby Jetguy » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:59 pm

Your result is easily explained by EMI/RFI and even capacitive effects of an unterminated (unplugged) wire. I was bench testing in a controlled environment. You have an entire printer frame and stepper drivers, not to mention the entire wiring harness runs in parallel channels.

The point is still the same.
The mainboard processor is using an ADC which is high impedance to read the analog voltage. When the cable breaks, without some form of controlled pull up or pull down state the very hardware level cannot detect a fault, hence why a firmware patch is not the magic bullet here. Clearly a controlled fault state at the signal level is not happening and there is an failure state that is not out of range enough to cause safety checks in firmware to trigger.


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